FEED DROP: Living For We

Ken Harbaugh:

Hi, it’s Ken Harbaugh, host of Burn the Boats. We’ve talked a lot about gun violence on this show, and how many politicians have ignored common sense solutions. Lax firearm regulations have made guns more accessible than ever, and as a result, communities are suffering. Thankfully, grassroots leaders are taking a stand.

Today I wanted to share an episode of Living For We: Keep Ya Head Up. The show highlights how these people are taking matters into their own hands in order to make their streets safer. Guests include organizers, therapists, formerly incarcerated and everyday people living in these communities who want to reduce gun violence, and tackle the systemic issues that play into it.

This first episode features a conversation with two young men that led a life of crime, but are now trying to leave that all behind them. Please enjoy this episode of Living For We: Keep Ya Head Up.

Narrator:

Living For We is part of the Connecting the Dots Between Race and Health Initiative from Ideastream Public Media --made possible by generous support from the Dr. Donald J. Goodman and Ruth Weber Goodman Philanthropic Fund of the Cleveland Foundation and made possible in part with support from Enbridge Gas Ohio.

Marlene:

Hi, I’m Marlene Harris Taylor, host of Living For We. Please be aware: We wanted our guests to show up as their authentic selves, so there’s some salty language in this episode.

Marlene:

On a brand new season of Living For We, we’ll hear from two young black Clevelanders.

Amir:

You accumulate ops, right? They got guns, you don't, something might happen.

Marlene:

And what does ops mean?

Amir:

Enemies, people who don't like you.

Myesha:

Amir and Drew have grown up on the streets. Like many others in the hood, they’ve carried guns for their protection.

Amir:

I just felt safe with the gun. You know what I’m saying? Felt very safe.

Myesha:

In this season of Living For We, we’re addressing gun violence head on.

Marlene:

We’ll be talking to people who have experienced it first hand in their communities, and giving them the opportunity to share their stories, and solutions.

Myesha:

In each episode we’ll also hear from those who are doing the work right now to uplift their neighborhoods, and make the streets safer.

Marlene:

This is Living For We: Keep Ya Head Up.

[Theme Plays]

Marlene:

Hi, I'm Marlene Harris-Taylor, Director of Engaged Journalism at Ideastream Public Media, and I'm so excited to welcome you to season two of Living for We. As you know in season one we focused on Black women in Cleveland, this season we're going to talk about a different topic. We're going to talk about gun violence in Cleveland, what can we do to start thinking about solutions to the violence on our streets? And are there any prevention strategies out there that maybe we could bring to our city to make things better?

And I'm also very excited to tell you that I have a cohost this season, Myesha Watkins, the Executive Director of the Peacemakers.

Myesha Watkins:

Thank you for having me. I'm so excited to be here.

Marlene Harris-Taylor:

And it was so important to me, Myesha, for you to be a part of this podcast this season, because of the topic, because you, I think, know more about what's happening on the streets of Cleveland than just about anybody.

Myesha Watkins:

It's such a hard topic to have conversations about. And first, I want to say thank you for the opportunity, and then to share that this work is so personal to me because my cousin was murdered June 24th of 2024, and so knowing exactly what it feels like for people who have been victims and survivors of gun violence has made this work that much more challenging.

Marlene Harris-Taylor:

I'm so sorry for your loss, Myesha. And I know that you do feel this work personally through your family, but also just through who the person you are. I've gotten to know over the past few months. Myesha and I have been working together to do listen and learn sessions out in the community, so that we could just talk to people about what they're dealing with.

Myesha Watkins:

Absolutely. We went to five counties, four counties? Five.

Marlene Harris-Taylor:

Four counties, five sessions.

Myesha Watkins:

And the amount of pain and courage that was in all of those sessions were both heartbreaking and heartwarming to see how many people are being impacted by this disease of gun violence, and do not have an outlet. For the first time having a conversation about the impacts of gun violence, for something that has happened years ago, was challenging.

Marlene Harris-Taylor:

So Myesha, we're getting ready to talk to two young men, Amir and Dre, who are just young people here in Cleveland trying to make their way through the streets and survive, but feeling like they have to carry a gun.

Myesha Watkins:

Yeah. And the unfortunate part is that these are two young men of many young men, right? And so for them to be brave enough to say, "I know what I'm doing is not the right way, how do I connect to people like Andre at Cleveland Peacemakers to give me the skills and the belief that I can change my life, that I can leave home without a gun?" Because if I'm asking you to put it down, it's because I'm giving you something else to pick up.

Marlene Harris-Taylor:

So one of our guests today is concealing his identity, and we're doing that because he has actually participated in crimes and shooting people in Cleveland, so we wanted to protect him so that he wouldn't have to face any retaliation.

Myesha Watkins:

Absolutely, and that's really important.

Amir:

When you in the streets, right, you accumulate ops, right? They got guns, you don't, something might happen.

Marlene:

And what does ops mean?

Amir:

Enemies, people who don't like you.

I just felt that, I just felt safe with the gun. You know what I'm saying? Feel very safe.

Myesha:

I've heard that a lot of people say I carry a gun for my safety. Even if I never have to use it. I just feel safe when I leave out the house. I grab my cell phone, my keys and my lip gloss. But when other people leave out the house, they may have to grab a gun.

Marlene:

Right. And Drew, I want to ask you about when you first started carrying a gun.

Drew:

11. my little cousin came up on the gun. He the one who found it and I was trying to be the big cousin. So I took it, said it was mine.

Marlene:

To try to keep him safe or keep him out of trouble?

Drew:

Yeah. Ever since then we started playing with guns, robbing people, shooting at people. I feel like the ruler of whole world when I first grabbed the gun.

Marlene:

The ruler of the whole world?

Drew:

Yeah. I liked it when people feared me.

Marlene:

When you were able to carry a gun, did you feel the same way?

Amir:

Yeah, most definitely. The reason I even picked up a gun, I might've been active, I might've been with my brother and stuff, but I was at a skating rink one day with my dad and this dude was just this going crazy. But my dad was sticking up for my auntie. He was talking to her and my dad, he was active. But when he came home from prison-

Marlene:

And when you say active, what do you mean by that?

Amir:

He was in the streets. He was selling dope, robbing niggas, you know what I'm saying? And he came home from prison, went straight. He always, always carried him a gun though, no matter what. If he was going to go back to prison for anything, it was going to be that gun charge. And he was just telling dude, "Man, just get on man. You know what I’m saying? Just go on about your day, you know what I'm saying, dude wouldn't stop. And he pulled a gun out and shot and my dad just opened fired on him. But I felt powerless in that I couldn't do nothing. I couldn't choose my own fate. I had to rely on somebody else. So from that very moment I got a gun.

Marlene:

I'm never going to be in that position again.

Amir:

Never going to be in that position again.

Myesha:

Is your dad okay?

Amir:

Yeah, he good.

Marlene:

Glad to hear that. But I wonder, did you think about the people who you were rolling up on and who you were robbing and so forth?

Drew:

It was either me or them. That's how I was living. It was either me or them. It going to happen sooner or later.

Marlene:

What's going to happen sooner or later?

Drew:

I'm going to check out, everybody die in life. You just got to learn to cope with it. Got to know your time coming, do whatever you can. Take care of your family. Try to make the best money you can before you go.

Myesha:

Yeah. Drew, was any other robberies like to take care of your family?

Drew:

Yeah, of course. Every robbery.

Myesha:

Okay.

Drew:

Nothing was just for fun.

Myesha:

And so at what age did you find out or you felt like you needed to take care of your family and that was the route

Drew:

14 when my mama got put out the house.

Myesha:

And you felt like you had to be the man?

Drew:

Yeah.

Myesha:

Was it something that was told to you or you just felt like?

Drew:

No, I knew I was running the streets. I knew I got to step up, shit going on. Ain't no little boy shit no more. Ain't no asking mommy for stuff.

Marlene:

Drew, I know a lot of people when they hear that somebody has committed violence in the community or somebody shot somebody, they want to know what's going on in your mind at that time. They say, what were they thinking? Why did they do that? Right? Can you help people understand what's going through your mind at that time?

Drew:

You never know what the person did to get shot. You never know what's going on in that situation. That's why my mama told me, stay out of people business. They ain't got nothing to do with you at all. Leave that alone. The person could have shot that persons person. Feel me? The person going to shoot them because you just shot my person. Why won't I shoot you? And you right here. Feel me? That's why all you got to mind your business, worry about yourself and your family.

Myesha:

Victims don't know... They may not know everything that they friend or family or loved one got going on and then they get caught inside a beef that they didn't even know about. So oftentimes people talk about the victims, but what about the perpetrators of violence? Those who are taking a life, nobody really talk about them or nobody really care about who they were or what they got going on. But perpetrators of violence are people too. And oftentimes probably was the victim at one point.

Marlene:

So was that your case? Were you a victim at one point?

Drew:

Yeah. Yeah. I got grazed before.

Marlene:

What would you want people to know about you? When you did something, like you had to shoot at somebody?

Drew:

He did it for a reason. It wasn't for fun. He did it for a reason. You know why he did it. And the person know why they got shot at or they got robbed. He did it for a reason.

Marlene:

It wasn't just some random thing.

Drew:

Yeah.

Amir:

It's a story behind it. It's always a story behind it. You know what I'm saying? It's a reaction. Everything is a reaction. He said this, he killed him. He killed him because he killed him and he going to kill him because he just killed him. So it's just always a reaction.

Marlene:

But it becomes like this cycle. And I know that's a big thing that the peacemakers do is step in to try to stop that cycle. So what do you guys think about that? How, other than the peacemakers who are doing a fantastic job, what are some ways that we could stop that cycle of the reaction to this person got shot? Then there's a reaction.

Amir:

I feel like you got to put yourself in a place to where that ain't even your scenario. You got to remove yourself. You got to choose you, got to choose your family. You know what I'm saying?

Marlene:

So Amir, when did you start to change your thinking?

Amir:

When I thought I wasn't going to graduate, I remember one day I came into school, security guards was right there. They do they normal check-in. I started ringing and a metal detector.

Marlene:

Uh-oh.

Amir:

I was cool with everybody. I knew everybody. Everybody loved Amir. So security guard gave me an opportunity. He said just go outside and put it down. Then Dre came and got me. He said, "Come on" you know what I'm saying? Then Dre looked at me for two, three weeks, walked past the hallway, scoping me out.

Marlene:

Dre from the Cleveland Peacemakers.

Amir:

Right, right. Started scoping me out. Then he pulled me, started talking to me, telling me his story, and I ain't never want to go through that. You know what I'm saying? I ain't never want to go through that. Never wanted to go to prison. I knew I was greater than going to prison, greater than being a statistic, greater than being just a number. You know what I'm saying? That's really what made me change. Then I had a son. That's really what made me change too.

Marlene:

So you're like, "I got to be an example for my son."

Amir:

Example, right.

Marlene:

Yeah.

Amir:

Because the example I had was my dad was a stick man.

Marlene:

What's a stick man?

Amir:

Just a nigga who robbed people for a living. That's what he do. So he was a stick man. So he ain't sell drugs. For real, for real. I mean he sell he little drugs, but he was a stick man. You know what I'm saying? That's what he was. So I just never wanted that to be the example of my son talking to me. The way I talked to my dad through a phone, through letters. You know what I'm saying? I just never wanted that. So that really what made me change.

Marlene:

How long is your dad away for?

Amir:

My dad did 10 years when I first was born. So I really didn't get a relationship to my dad till I graduated eighth grade, I got promoted from eighth grade. That's when my relationship really got stronger with my dad. But my dad was gone. My dad was in prison.

Marlene:

So it sounds like you were in that right place when Dre was there and was starting that relationship with you from Peacemakers. You were at that right moment where you were ready to hear what he was saying. It sounds like.

Amir:

You got to be ready too though. I was ready to stop doing all. I was ready for people to stop looking at me as a disappointment. I was ready for all. I was just ready to flourish. You know what I'm saying? You got to be ready. But it takes somebody like that who been through that, still going through that to get you out of that place. It definitely takes a strong mentor.

Myesha:

At one point in your life carrying a gun was necessary for your safety or for whatever reason, how did you get to the point where you're saying, "I don't need to carry a gun, I can actually put it down."

Amir:

A real big part of it, I'm not going to lie, was me getting a car. Knowing I wasn't going to be just out there on foot. Anybody ride past me and you just learn how to move. You just learn how to move to where you don't need one. You know what neighborhood you're not welcome in, just don't go.

Marlene:

But a car was a big part of that?

Amir:

A car was a huge... The reason I did.

Marlene:

That's real interesting.

Amir:

... was because of the car.

Marlene:

I had never thought of that before.

Amir:

And then you don't want be riding around in a car, you know what I'm saying, with a gun. You know what I'm saying? That play a big part too.

Myesha:

Did you feel naked without a gun once you made that transition

Amir:

For a minute. It became normal though. Became normal. It is always accessible though.

Myesha:

Yeah.

Amir:

It's still there though.

Myesha:

Yeah.

Amir:

You know what I'm saying? But it's just not, I don't need to carry it. I don't need to take that risk of going to jail.

Myesha:

That's real. I appreciate that. What about you?

Drew:

I'm going to forever carry my gun.

Marlene:

You're going to forever carry your gun?

Myesha:

Due to feeling unsafe?

Drew:

I'm going to carry it the legal way though.

Myesha:

That's real.

Drew:

I got to get stuff done though, so I can carry it the legal way.

Myesha:

Okay.

Amir:

Yeah. Once I do get legal though.

Marlene:

Once you do get legal.

Amir:

Once I do get legal, I will have it on me.

Marlene:

Drew, where do you feel like you are in this? Are you still out there? Are you still active?

Drew:

A little bit, like I'm dipping in and out of it. I'm still tied in with a few stuff that I'm getting over right now, I'm trying to get a job, all type of stuff.

Marlene:

So what's the hurdle? What's keeping you straddling

Drew:

Losing friends and stuff. I can say no whenever I want. It's just so much shit that happened for me not to, too much to happen.

Marlene:

Like what?

Drew:

I done lost cousins. The gun that I had that I took from my little cousin, he died in my arms, through the gun violence.

Marlene:

Your little cousin?

Drew:

Yeah. Back in 2022.

Marlene:

How old was he?

Drew:

He was only, what, 14? 15? 14, 15 when he died. He got shot.

Myesha:

How do you deal with those feelings and those emotions?

Drew:

Talk to my family about it some time. Feel me? Work through it. I'm still trying to graduate.

Marlene:

So you want to go to college?

Drew:

Yeah. So I can flip houses.

Myesha:

That's the thing about having transferable skills. Some of the skills that you have in the streets, you can just flip it into a business mindset, right? Strategically, somebody is saying I got 10 cars this week. How can you transfer that into houses? I got to flip 10 houses this week. How much money it's going to take, how much time it's going to take. So the skills that you have is already inside of you. You just need somebody to help amplify them in a way that can keep you safe and free from incarceration.

Marlene:

So Amir,what can we do to help people like you to get to the other side where you have a job where you can go to college, where you can have a different kind of life?

Amir:

It definitely take, like I said, a strong person. A strong person who care about you. Because a lot of the young men in our community, a lot of the boys in our community, a lot of niggas the in our community, they don't got no nigga to look up to. They don't got no dad to go home to, to talk to teach them about this, to teach them about that. So it takes somebody else. It definitely takes somebody else. Think that's why like y'all was talking about, that's why a lot of we are like this today is because back then your neighbor could grab you up. You know what I'm saying? You'll get a-

Myesha:

Back when I was young, they sure could.

Amir:

You'll get a whooping, then go home and get another whooping.

Marlene:

That's a fact.

Myesha:

If they didn't grab you up. There was a lease calling your mama to tell on you. Right?

Amir:

Right. They partying with us now.

Marlene:

Instead of calling your mom, they partying with you.

Amir:

Right. They throwing the parties.

Marlene:

The adults throwing the party.

Myesha:

That's crazy too.

Marlene:

So we need some more strong Black men to go into the community. We need more people like Dre in the community.

Amir:

Just mommas being mommas, daddies being daddies. Because they had babies young. So they still want to live and be young and you know what I'm saying? My mama was walking across the stage pregnant with me.

Marlene:
You mean from graduation?

Amir:

Yeah. So she still wanted to party and live life she didn't get to. So it just be that.

Marlene:

Yeah, I do. So what do you think about that, Drew? In terms of what needs to be done to help people like you live the life you want to live the life you dream of.

Drew:

More programs like Peacemaker, that's a wonderful program. Helping kids stay out the streets and stuff. Like Amir said, you just need someone like a father figure or uncle in your life to guide you through success and stuff. So you can really get to where you got to go You need help. You can't do everything by yourself.

Amir:

I feel like church, that's our counselor. I feel like I can go to my pastor right now and have a full hour conversation with him. That's therapy to me, connected with God. You know what I'm saying?

Marlene:

Yes.

Amir:

That's therapy to me. So those therapists that get paid, licensed, I don't believe in that. I believe in God, power of God.

Marlene:

A lot of younger people are not into church right now. What do you think the churches can do to get people and more young men especially to come back?

Amir:

The first thing cut down service.

Myesha:

It's too long?

Amir:

Four hours too long. It need to be an hour. Three selections.

Marlene:

I'm with you on that. I'm with you there.

Amir:

Sermon and that's it.

Myesha:

Sound like you need to go up there behind a pulpit.

Amir:

That's it. Just straight to the point.

Marlene:

Boom, we out.

You know what I'm saying? Because a lot of the relationship building with God doesn't happen in church. You got to have a personal relationship. So that helps too.

Myesha:

If you can talk to your younger self before you picked up a gun, what would you tell your younger self?

Drew:

Put that gun back in the glove compartment.

Myesha:

Why?

Drew:

Everything came behind the gun. Shit that I didn't want to happen happened. Too much stuff happened behind the gun.

Myesha:

Yeah.

Drew:

I could have had a great life.

Myesha:

If you can dream about, think about that life, what would it have look like?

Drew:

My brother life, my big brother. My brother is D1 athlete. He play football, run track and basketball. And he on the swim team. That's who I look up to. My big brother. That definitely could have been my life.

Myesha:

So our tagline for our show is called Keep Your Head Up. Drew. When I tell you to keep your head up, what does that mean to you?

Drew:

Keep my head high through whatever's going on. Basically stay strong through whatever's happening. Don't let nothing bring me down.

Myesha:

Right. When's the last time somebody told you to keep your head up?

Drew:

Yesterday.

Myesha:

Yesterday?

Drew:

Yeah.

Myesha:

What was going on yesterday?

Drew:

I was arguing with my mama. My brother told me, "Leave it alone. Keep your head up."

Myesha:

Were you able to do that?

Drew:

Yeah, we got back cool after that, me and my mama.

Marlene:

Aw, that's awesome that your brother said keep your head up and then you and your mom got back together. That's wonderful.

Myesha:

Yeah. What about you?

Amir:

Like somebody cares. Like somebody cares, like somebody notices.

Marlene Harris-Taylor:

Myesha, that was so interesting to hear from people who are actually in the middle of it, because so often people say, "Why don't they just put the gun down?" Or "Why do they feel like they have to rob people? Why do they feel like they have to commit other crimes?" And to hear from people say, "You know what? This is what I've got to do to survive."

Myesha Watkins:

Yeah. And it was interesting when you talk about putting the guns down, just think about the age when they had to pick it up.

Marlene Harris-Taylor:

Yeah.

Myesha Watkins:

Pick up a gun at age 11, you pick up a gun at that age and then your 11-year-old cousin dies in your arms due to firearm violence. Or the other story of like, "I felt so powerless when my father got shot at I said I would never be in that situation ever again." So the moment that they decided to not be a young boy, to be a man, it's like their childhood was robbed out of sense of hopelessness and fear and desperation, and needing to prove themself. Having to be the man of the house at age 14 to do whatever is necessary for your mother due to housing instability. And so these young people never had hopes and dreams of living this lifestyle, but circumstances happen, and then our mindset shifts. And so when we talk about you picking up the gun, why did you have to? And they went into detail about that, but-

Marlene Harris-Taylor:

And express regret, regret. If I could go back now...

Myesha Watkins:

Even when they're dreaming about what their life would have been like, you can't see Drew’s face, but his eyes was telling it all like, "Yo, I could have had a life of promising desires." And even had an example of what it would look like. So I think just hearing this part will make it a more human connection to people to say, "Circumstances does happen and people choose what they think is necessary, even if it isn't right." But how do we take that and create something good out of it?

Marlene Harris-Taylor:

It makes sense for their lived experience, the choices that they're making.

Myesha Watkins:

Absolutely.

Marlene Harris-Taylor:

So we're getting ready to meet the man they talked about so much.

Myesha Watkins:

Andre Taylor.

Marlene Harris-Taylor:

Now, tell us a little bit more about the Peacemakers before we hear from Andre.

Myesha Watkins:

So Cleveland Peacemakers is an organization that works with victims, survivors and perpetrators of gun violence, and we work in different systems. So the justice system, the court system, we work in the level one trauma hospitals, work inside of the school system, but wherever young people are who are at the highest risk of shooting or being shot, it is our job to relentlessly engage them to reduce that risk. And if you listen to the young men that we interviewed earlier, you will hear that the risk is like, "I just needed a job. I'm becoming a father, I just want to make money." And it's so little, and it's like, "If I can just find an Andre to be able to tell me that I am capable of doing this, then I can do it. My belief in what's possible for me will change." So I'm looking forward to Andre, hearing his perspective, because my perspective is different, but he's boots-on-the-ground and works with these young people hours and hours and day in and day out.

Andre Taylor:

So I always use to tell my mom, this is my quote from the streets being myself, "If I die, bury me a G." Meaning don't mourn about my death. You already know how I'm living. Just bury me the way I want to go out. You know what I'm saying? Just bury me and just have a celebration.

Myesha

G stands for gangsta if you all don't know.

Marlene:

I didn't know. Thanks for explaining that.

Marlene:

You said, "Bury me a G."?

Andre Taylor:

Yeah, let me go out how I live.

Marlene:

Bury me a gangster.

Andre Taylor:

If you on the streets and you doing any wrong doings, you active in gangs, carjacking, robbery, murder, if it happen to you, you can't cry about it.

Marlene:

It's going to come back.

Andre Taylor:

It got to come back, one way or another, prison or death. I tell the young guys I work with every day, there's only two ways out this game if we don't tighten up, die or life in prison.

Myesha

So Dre, what was young Dre like before you picked up the gun?

Andre Taylor:

I've been in gangs since I was 12, so I picked up a gun about the age of 13 and it was young Dre was active since he's 13. So I remember when I was younger, like 12, 11, I was into sports, boxing, football, basketball. I was good in all sports but consequences of my circumstances, living in an inner city of Cleveland and going back and forth in California, you get involved with a lot of things in them streets that you don't try to but your environment swallow you in, it pulls you in.

Marlene:

What was it that made you first pick it up at 13, pick up a gun?

Andre Taylor:

Just the power behind the gun. Being able to have it and I could control scenarios. I could control every scenario with a gun. Even if I didn't use it at 13, if I'm on the block hustling, don't mess with little Dre. That nigga got that gun, you feel me?

Marlene:

Mm-hmm.

Andre Taylor:

Sometimes I'll put the gun down, we could fight. I tell my homies, "Hold the gun, let me whip on this dude real quick." So I always been active since I was a kid. Even when I was in prison, I was active because I had to be. The environment I'm in, I had to be who I am.

Andre Taylor:

Yeah, it's easier right now than it was when I was growing up. You still had adults, older people trying to convince you not to do this.

Marlene:

You mean back then?

Andre Taylor:

Back then. But now shit, they selling you the guns, giving you the guns because they're afraid of the youth nowadays. The older generation, they're afraid of the youth.

Marlene:

Isn't that sad?

Andre Taylor:

Yeah.

Myesha

I was talking to a friend the other day and she said she found a gun in her son's room and she found a gun inside of a happy meal box. Where ever he picked the gun up...

Andre Taylor:

You got to be creative [inaudible 00:11:25].

Myesha

... Picked it up in the Happy Meal box.

Marlene:

That was his hiding place.

Myesha

And she was cleaning up his room and saw the box and it was heavy and she's just like...

Marlene:

Thank God it didn't go off or discharge.

Myesha

He bought it off Instagram, out the DMs.

Marlene:

On Instagram?

Myesha

It goes down in the DM.

Andre Taylor:

You can sell them. They got ghost guns, you can send me your stuff and everything off the internet.

Marlene:

It's very easy to get.

Andre Taylor:

Yeah, they easy to get.

Myesha

So Dre, in doing community violence intervention work on the other side of working with survivors, perpetrators or victims of gun violence, how do you utilize your story to be able to change the lives of young people?

Andre Taylor:

I was a 15, sixteen-year-old, seventeen-year-old kid before and my relatable stories is just like what they're going through nowadays. So if I come to their level instead of having them come to my level. So when I deal with a kid, I listen to the same music, I dress how they dress. I just relate to them that way. They look at me like, "Dre cool. Dre just this. Dre..." And I let them be them. On our way down here, I let them smoke weed because that's what he going to do anyway. "Go ahead. You grown. Go ahead."

Marlene:

So what do you say to the young men that you're mentoring, like the two young men we were talking to today, when they say, "Hey Dre, you know what? I got my reputation. If somebody pull up on me and pull a gun, I got to respond likewise." What do you say?

Andre Taylor:

I tell them, "Don't be like me. Be better than me." I tell them, "I'm going up this yellow brick road and it's two ways to go. There's the ops sitting on this side, which way do I go? And I could go freely that way. Why would I walk towards ops? Let us see another day. Go that way. Use your brain a little bit. Be smart. These city streets is wild. You got to navigate through these streets by being smart. You can't get caught slipping. If I got ops nowadays in Cleveland, I got to navigate smarter. It's a chess board. You're playing chess with the streets. You got to play chess. There's no way you can't run from it because the city is only so big, you can navigate. The one young man, he changed his life. He was in the streets heavy and I helped him navigate through the streets. Now he working. He doing everything he's supposed to do. He don't even carry a gun no more.

Marlene:

So what was it that made the difference there? Was it just his change of mindset? What was it that made the difference there?

Andre Taylor:

Time I spent with him. Stories I shared with him and the love I gave him from my heart.

Marlene:

Myesha

So Dre, when you first got out of prison, you applied here at Cleveland Peacemakers. When you were in prison, what type of work did you see yourself coming home to and then when you fell into this, what was it?

Andre Taylor:

Well, when I was in prison I did some of the same shit where I worked with kids. I was in prison. I did 22 years, right? So imagine me doing 22 years. How many nephews, little cousins, my homies kids, chicks’ I used to mess with kids come through the prison. So I see them coming through and I'd be like, "What up little homie, where you from?" "I'm from Cleveland." "What part up? Up the way? You from up the way? What's your parents' name? What's your daddy's name?" Then I got another name. I'll be like, "Ask your mom, does she know me." And I give them my street name, "Oh yeah, my mom said she went to school with you." So I caught myself in prison doing the same work I'm doing now. You know what I'm saying? Mentoring young dudes, keeping them out of gangs, out of the trouble. I kept them all, doing it. And I had more kids in prison than I was doing that before that I do on the street because I started a mentoring program in prison called Men of Tomorrow. I was in Grafton, and the ward, he came to me, he had a gang problem. He came to me like, "Hey, Taylor man, we need some help man. We got this gang epidemic in prison." And I was a big known gang leader throughout my life. So I came up soon. I compromised some stuff with him. I came up with a program, he checked it off and it worked for us. And they still running the same program in prison now that I created back then and I've been home three years.

Marlene:

That's wonderful.

Myesha

And you was also a part of the NAACP, right?

Andre Taylor:

I was the president NAACP in prison too.

Marlene:

Okay, so you were drawn to this work. It's just some part of your calling.

Andre Taylor:

Yeah, because if you don't grab them when they come through the door, they get swallowed up alive in prison. They get lost. Lord, they get deeply... Especially when they get a lot of time they get real lost. If we don't keep them focused and put them under your wing and do the right thing, they get lost in there.

Myesha

Did you have someone to take you under their wing when you got there?

Andre Taylor:

No. Hell no. Hell no. Not me.

Marlene:

How'd you figure it out then?

Andre Taylor:

Me being me.

Myesha

Relationships?

Andre Taylor:

A boss being a boss. Just a guy coming from the streets, gang related, calling shots. So I grew up in prison.

Myesha

How old were you?

Andre Taylor:

27. I came out 49. So I grew up in prison. And that was my third time in prison. I did a year when I was 19, got out, fucked up again, went back, stayed home for two years, caught a fed case in '94, ended up doing three years out of that, then got out in '97, then I went back and caught a murder case in '99, then I did that 22 years. So it was like trying to figure it out, kept fumbling the ball and I was highly successful in selling drugs. I just get caught, you know what I'm saying?

Marlene:

And you didn't have anybody to mentor you to say, "You need to get out of this life."

Andre Taylor:

If I'm running my own gang, and I got 40 members in my gang, who am I going to look to mentor me? I'm everybody else's boss. I don't need no boss. I'm my own boss. And this is the first boss I ever had in a job setting. So I ain't need no boss.

Marlene:

You were the boss.

Marlene:

Do you try to share that with young men about, "It's just not worth it to lose all that time in your life."?

Andre Taylor:

Every day. Every day. If I talk to 10 guys, 10 kids throughout the day on a one-on-one personal five to 10 minute conversation, I tell them, "If I can change your perspective, let me. If we don't, you going to get the results you don't want. Then once you sitting in prison and you got $1,000,000 bond, you can't call mama to save you now. Now you grown now. You grew up now. So it's on you. I'll support you as much as you want me to support you. I ain't going to tell you put your gun down because now I know you need it because you carrying it for a reason. But I'm going to tell you, "Dude, there's something on the other side of that fence you ain't going to want." You feel me? When they lock that door at nine o'clock at night, and you hear screams and yells and you do this for day after day, night after night and it never get old, because you got a life in prison sentence. You be thinking. Your mind wanders so much, what's to come, what tomorrow holds.

Myesha

It's hard being in this work, from what I hear from Dre's perspective, because Dre is a strong Black man working in communities where the male presence is almost non-existent. So a lot of women see him and say, "You are exactly who I need to get my son together." But on the other side they have men who are the opposite of Dre that cause interpersonal conflict between the young people. How do you deal with the...

Marlene:

You mean the men that the women are dealing with? That the mom is dealing with?

Myesha

Yep. So how do you deal with that interpersonal conflict where...

Andre Taylor:

Well, this is one of the problems I have doing this work. When I go into a home, when they give me a caseload and I see a man there, I get upset. Guy shouldn't be here. So I talked to the mom, I said, "Is he helping with you with your son?" And she'll be like, "No." Or she'll be like, "He tries." I shouldn't be here. If you got a man in your house, I shouldn't be there because if I was that man in your house and another man come to my house, I'm going to feel some type of way.

Myesha

Dre, as we are talking about gun violence, what do you think are the reasons why young people carry guns in our communities?

Andre Taylor:

A lot of these guys get guns, they want ops. So if you get a gun, "I got to find me a op now, I got a gun."

Marlene:

They want an enemy?

Andre Taylor:

Yeah. If I get a gun, and I'm a kid nowadays, "Now, I got to find me an op to use against." So I go on social media and troll, I troll, create ops. Because it ain't really necessary for a 15-year-old, 16-year-old to carry a gun. We carried guns, but we fought first. You feel me? I ain't started shooting until I started getting shot because if I got shot couple times, "Oh, it's time for me to shoot back." Because I'm kicking but they ain't going for it. "We tired of this dude kicking our ass." Start shooting him. So I feel like they carry guns just for... They see social media. They're doing it on social media, it's cool. They see rappers doing it. Well, a rapper just an entertainer. He ain't really like that.

Myesha

Do you feel like our communities are safe where...

Andre Taylor:

No, we ain't safe because everybody got guns. How is you safe and everybody got guns? It's not safe no more.

Myesha

So do you think guns are the new cell phones for this generation?

Andre Taylor:

Fore sure. They cost less than cell phones.

Myesha

And that's crazy.

Andre Taylor:

Yeah.

Marlene:

That is crazy.

Andre Taylor:

If I'm in the streets and I'm tired because it's rough, because I can't go nowhere without my gun, most of these young niggas ain't hustling. They just carrying guns.

Myesha

That's real.

Andre Taylor:

Right. They eating wherever. They find a meal wherever you can find a meal at. You feel me? So you get tired after a while and they want a way out. I get a lot of phone calls, "Man, I need a job man. I need some help, Dre." That's a cry for a way out.

Myesha

Yeah.

Marlene:

That is.

Andre Taylor:

You feel me? That's a cry for a way out. "Well, I'm going to come get you tomorrow and get you a interview." The other little guy, I took him on a job interview. He's tired.

Marlene:

So when they reach out to you and they're tired like that, do you have the resources? When I say you I mean you Peacemakers, do you guys have the resources to connect people to jobs?

Andre Taylor:

We can connect you with jobs, help you with school. We got a lot of resources.

Myesha

Mental health support.

Andre Taylor:

Mental health support, everything. Housing, we got all kinds of resources.

Marlene:

So if they reach out to you, you have what you need to help them?

Andre Taylor:

Yeah, but you got to follow through. I can't do no work for them unless they do the work for they self.

Marlene:

Myesha, what a great conversation with Dre. He just seems like such a great human being.

Myesha:

He really is. He oftentimes say, "I cause so much harm in these streets. I got to give back to the young people and teach them so they can learn from my mistakes." Like speaking to them and not at them, but let them know what the realities of community gun violence can lead you to, whether it's dead or in jail, but the outcome will not be great.

Marlene:

Speaking of young people, one of our earlier guests expressed skepticism about going to therapy.

Myesha:

I understand. A lot of, too often in a Black community how we deal with our problems is that we just keep them, push it under the rug. In a space like therapy that catered to other communities, sometimes Black people just don't feel comfortable. But as a therapist, there are so many different ways to address trauma and therapy just happen to be one of them. But for someone like Drew who's like, "I've been in therapy since I was a kid and I have learned nothing." The goal is to not be offended by it as a therapist. It's to understand. The form of therapy that he probably had was ineffective. How do you allow somebody to take control of their own therapeutic journey and really allow them to heal in a way that's beneficial to him? Although he might have discounted the other therapists before he met me, I believe that therapy is one of many ways that can help address the traumatic experiences that Black people who live in communities that's impacted by gun violence can help start the healing process.

Marlene:

Unfortunately, a lot of Black men feel that way about going to therapy and that's why I'm so excited that we had an opportunity to speak with a licensed therapist who is a Black man, Jor-El Caraballo, who is in New York. He's going to share some tactics from his book called Self-Care for Black Men.

Myesha:

Yes. All Black men that's listening, this is a guide for you to be more intentional about how you care for yourself.

Jor-El:

I come to the work of psychology and mental health, first and foremost, by having my own lived experience as a person in this world, as a Black man in this world. So, to me, a part of my mission has always been, as a mental health professional, as a Black man in this space, is to be visible representation of these conversations, of these ideas and of expanding the kinds of conversations we're having about Black men, mental health, masculinity, relationships, all of this stuff, self-care. And so, I exist in community. There are important Black men in my life that I also want them to be armed with the tools and resources they need to take really good care of themselves.

Marlene:

People say to us, "When I walk out of my house, I have to be always aware, always hypervigilant, always worried that, possibly, I might get shot." It's a different kind of way you got to move and hold yourself to stay safe. Right? So what would you say, what would your advice be to those people in those spaces who feel like, "I have to project this certain kind of masculinity, so that people don't see me as weak and I don't become a victim"?

Jor-El:

When I talk about redefining masculinity, when I talk about evolving, there is privilege in those statements. Right? Because, for any of us to be our best selves, we have to be beyond the point of just surviving, and that's just the reality of the situation.

Marlene:

Yeah. That's real, that's real.

Jor-El:

I have no illusions about that, and so, to those people, I would say do what you need to do in order to survive. Right? But also, question the scripts that you do have about how you're supposed to be and how you survive, because they may not be entirely as simple as they've been given to you.

Myesha:

The conversation about whatever I need to do... when I was younger, my mom said, "I'll do whatever is necessary to take care of my family." Necessary, legally or illegally, can cause problems. Right? Those choices can have consequences, and I think that's what we're seeing in communities that lack investment, is that the choices that I need to make to survive will not allow me to thrive, because I can either lose my life to community violence or to a system. So what kind of mentality do a young person have to have when they know that my choices can have severe consequences, but I got to do whatever is necessary, whether you like it or not?

Jor-El:

Yeah. It's an incredibly difficult position, and I also want to be clear about this, it's a position that we, collectively, put people in. Right?

Myesha:

Yep, it's systemic.

Jor-El:

These are structural and systemic considerations-

Myesha:

Talk about it.

Jor-El:

... that create an environment in which we are made to think, "This is the only way I can survive."

Myesha:

Listen, from Cleveland to New York, we got the same language.

Jor-El:

Come on. Okay, right? And so, I think to young people I also want to say, yes, if you are in that environment, one, that environment is not of your creation. Right? If it's not of your creation, you don't have the responsibility to maintain it or whatever. You get to make yourself in that environment. And so, even with the question of survivability, doing what is necessary, my question to those people is, okay, but give yourself permission to imagine how can I survive differently?

Myesha:

There you go.

Jor-El:

Right? It's not like I need to do what I need to do to survive, period, end of story, I never have to think about this further. This is all that needs to happen. No. Say that, and then say, "How can I survive in a safer way? How can I reduce risk? How can I manage the risks that I do have to take better? Are there resources I just haven't been aware of? Let me ask some questions of some people. Let me look at these other resources in the community and see if I actually can risk investing in that."

Myesha:

The number one cause of premature death for all kids and teens in our country is gun violence. What message would you give to them about a mindset to be the most safe or to diffuse any potential preventable conflicts?

Jor-El:

I think what I would say to those young people in environments like that is, it may not seem like it, but there is a world beyond what you currently know and the choices that you make now can help you create a future that is the future that you actually want.

Myesha:

Ooh, I love that.

Jor-El:

So try and give yourself the permission and the courage to make the choices that you know will feed that life that you're hoping for, because it's out there.

Marva:

Hi, my name is Marva, and I'm calling from Cleveland, Ohio About a year ago, I had a 15-year-old cousin who got shot at school in Cleveland. He got shot by another classmate who thought that he was trying to talk to his girlfriend, I guess. But that has obviously affected my family. He was in the hospital for a month. The school also had incorrect information, told us it was a BB gun, it was not a BB gun. And the hospital bills for that were astronomical, I know, for his mom. And I don't know anyone who's necessarily combating gun violence, but one thing that that led me to start looking into a little more seriously is restorative justice. So, I've been doing some volunteering in restorative justice circles, and I know that's not necessarily working to decrease gun violence, but I do think that, in some ways, that could be seen as a solution. So, anyway, thank you for your time.