Chase and 10X Banking: Building a Digital Platform for the Future

Jim Marous:

Hello, and welcome to Banking Transform, the top podcast in retail banking. I'm your host, Jim Marous, owner and CEO of The Digital Bank Report and co-publisher of The Financial Brand.

Chase, the digital banking app launched by JP Morgan has reached 1 million UK customers since launching in September of last year with a 1% cash back deal and fee-free overseas checking card use. This growth exceeded the number of both Monzo and Starling, two other very successful UK neobanks. 10x Banking, the UK based cloud native banking technology business created the platform that powers Chase's entry into the UK retail banking market. The platform provides a scalable architecture that allows Chase to expand its retail banking proposition in the UK and beyond.

To discuss why a scalable core banking platform built on microservices and APIs is the key to building a better digital bank, we have Antony Jenkins, CEO and founder of 10x Banking on the Banking Transform podcast. In 2016, our podcast guest launched 10x Banking with a goal of making banking better. The company's name stands for the belief that financial firms need new technologies that can make banking 10 times better than it already exists. Antony, I first met you at an event in London when you were with Barclays. Your perspective on what banking needed to do then was spot on, but few foresaw the changes that we're seeing today. What are the biggest changes that you've seen in banking in the past five years?

Antony Jenkins:

Yeah, in many ways the work that I'm doing now, the changes that we're seeing are things which I first became interested in the mid 90s. And I was always fascinated by two fundamental questions. Firstly, why doesn't banking work better for humans? If you think about it, most things that banks do are quite boring, sometimes intimidating for the customer, but actually they're very important in people's lives. As I always say, "Nobody wants to get a mortgage, everybody wants to buy a house." Yet the industry has steadfastly refused to engage in making those processes a lot easier for the customer.

And the second thing was why haven't we seen real transformation driven by technology? And I guess one of my conclusions around that, because I was living in the United States and working in New York City in the early 2000s, and at that time everybody thought internet banking was going to replace branch banking. And of course internet banking just ended up sitting alongside branch banking. But my conclusion on the technology angle was technology had to reach a certain point of capability and price point for it to be able to address and transform a complex vertical like financial services. Yeah, you think about other things that we do online shopping, buying travel, social interaction, those things are relatively straightforward when you compare them to banking. And I think the big thing that's changed in the last five years is we have a lot of very powerful technologies now available to create a platform like 10x, which can make banking 10 times better. And we say that it's 10 times better for the bank, 10 times better for their customer, and 10 times better for society.

Jim Marous:

So when you look at traditional banking, a Barclays, a Citi, a Chase in the United States, at least, they're big and they can invest pretty heavily. But overall, the technology that the banking industry has, has really moved slowly within banking organizations. While FinTech firms have often had the challenge of building scale and profitability. What do you see as the key components of a modern tech stack that should be in place in banking today?

Antony Jenkins:

Yeah, so of course, established banks are burdened by lots and lots of legacy technology, which was in many cases designed 30, 40, 50 years ago. So in order to deliver 10x Banking, we established two core principles from the start and have since added a third. So the first two core principles, and this goes all the way back to 2016, was we had to design the architecture around the customer, not around the product. And this is really important because if you are a customer of a bank and you have maybe a checking account, maybe a savings account with your partner, maybe a mortgage, each of those products looks as if you are an entirely different customer. And although banks talk a good game about big data, actually they have to take that data out of the processing systems, put it in a data lake, clean it up before they can do something useful with it.

So the first thing we said was let's create a customer-centric architecture. That's important for data as I just mentioned, but it's also important for operational efficiency. For example, when you change the customer's address because they've moved house, you only have to do it once on our platform regardless of how many products they have with you. The second thing we said was if you think about all financial products, they basically do the same things. You have to charge a fee, maybe you have to credit a fee, you have to charge an interest rate, maybe pay an interest rate. So rather than build a set of product modules in the platform, a lending module, a savings module, a credit card module and so on, let's build a set of services or microservices that can be assembled together to present functionality inside the customer-centric architecture, which gives us massive reuse. So it means we can build products very quickly and we can do it very cheaply.

And the third thing that we've added since the original kind of design for 10x was this notion of being multi-tenanted. One of the huge issues for banks to upgrade their technology is migration. These are very expensive long term programs which carry a high degree of risk and indeed many of them have gone wrong. And that's been career limiting for CEOs and CIOs and so on, and boards to some extent. And the reason why these programs are so complex is because what you're essentially trying to do is take these very old legacy systems and replicate them on more modern technology. What we said was, if we build the new capability in the new technology, then we have to connect it back to the legacy systems, not the core processing systems, but things like general ledger, regulatory reporting, payments and so on. But because our platform's multi-tenant, once the bank's done that work, they only have to do it once.

So for example, you can stand up a checking accounts as sub-tenant on the platform, but you can also stand up a savings product, or a mortgage product, or a lending product. So you only have to do that integration into the legacy once. What that does is it shortens the time dramatically, it brings down the cost and the risk. At the same time, because most financial products have a relatively short life, two to three years on average, it means that you begin to book the new volume onto the new platform and just let the old business attrite off the legacy. So it gives you for the first time a viable relatively low cost, relatively low risk path for migration. And so these are the three things that you would want to see in a modern platform. And they're all things we've built into 10x.

Jim Marous:

You're not only building a digital banking organization at Chase and elsewhere, but you also have situations where you're partnering with legacy finance institutions. What is the major differences that you see between starting a digital banking organization from scratch or trying to convert the existing quarter to the legacy banking organization? What are the challenges and opportunities in both cases?

Antony Jenkins:

Yes, there's an old cliche that says you can do anything with enough time and money.

Jim Marous:

Yeah.

Antony Jenkins:

We've spent six years doing this, it's all we do. I think for most legacy banks the challenge is this is something they're trying to accomplish alongside keeping the lights on, the BAU and dealing with regulatory updates, and so on. So they don't have that singular focus.

The second thing is, although they have many thousands of technologists in banks, they're mostly schooled in the old technologies and old ways of doing things. And it's very hard to attract people from the modern technology world into banks because it's not very exciting. Part of the reason why people come to work at 10x is because they believe in our purpose and our mission of making banking 10 times better and they get to work on very complex projects with new sophisticated technology. So for us, we believe that this process of replacing the technology in order to create transformation will much more successfully be done by working with a third party like ourselves in partnership with the people inside the banks. But over time, our view is that once this technology's up and running, it allows you to massively reduce the number of folks that the bank needs to employ, whether it's in product development, data and analytics, the technology itself. Because unlike the old world where the data scientist is spending 85% of their time passing the data and trying to figure out the three different versions of my name is really the same customer, that's all done. It's all done in a 10x platform. We can stream that data in real time. Same with product.

I mean we have a tool called bank manager where a product manager, which is a job I used to do, can build a new product entirely on the desktop without any code at all. They can build that new product. There's a workflow that sits around it, so it can be authorized by risk compliance, legal, finance, et cetera. And once that authorization's complete, it can just go into a queue and be promoted into production. So in theory, you could build a product in a couple of hours as opposed to most banks take many months, sometimes years, to get a new product to market. So what that means is your new organization, the bank of the future will have many thousands of people less in it because they'll have all the tools to do their job. You don't need a huge technology organization now to build a new product because you can build it using our bank manager tool.

Jim Marous:

Antony, you mentioned about converting the core of an existing organization and how this can save on employees and improve processes. But at most third party providers, their biggest challenge is actually being able to implement things the way they know they will work. So in one case you're going to have a situation that they have back office processes that really, really hinder and hamper the conversion to a new core. In addition, when people feel that their jobs are at risk, the culture can kind of take a side turn and make it very difficult to implement what you want to implement. How do you deal with those two challenges? The challenge of the processes behind the core, which are analog in many cases and the human aspect of bringing people up to speed and making them get on board where there's going to be reduction in team?

Antony Jenkins:

Yeah, so we're basically a technology company that serves financial services firms. And I founded the company from the perspective of a business person. I basically sat down and thought about all the problems I've ever had in my career and tried to build technology that would address those problems. And so what we've been able to do is really deal with all of the use cases that you find in big complex banks. Every bank we sit down and talk to, "Oh we are different. We're so much more complicated. We've got all this legacy stuff." And actually everybody's got the same problems. At the end of the day, you've got to onboard a customer, you've got to provide set of services to them. You might have to off-board that customer at some point. These things are fundamental and common. And we have built a platform which is capable of serving every customer type from a retail customer all the way up to a large corporate across all of the major product lines, asset and liabilities. So transactions, savings, lending of different sorts. And all that functionality exists, so it will cope with the problems and the idiosyncrasies of banks that they've built up over the years.

The more fundamental point is the one you've touched on, which is this at its heart is not a technology problem, it's a people problem, it's a culture and leadership problem. And I was talking to somebody about this earlier today. Many banks have kicked the can down the road because it is too hard to deal with. But actually we're now at the end of the road, banks need to deal with these issues because a lot of their existing technology is going out of support. A lot of it will not do what the banks require it to do. At the same time as the environment is ever more competitive with FinTechs out there and big tech companies. So the banks have run out of a road, they can't kick the can down it anymore and that will cause, and we're seeing it everywhere, much greater appetite for this type of activity. But it will manifest itself in different ways. So for some banks, they believe that they can just put in a cloud based core and that will solve their problems. I think that might solve a hardware problem, but it doesn't really create transformation. That's what I call improvement. You put in our platform, it gives you those 10x benefits. Not every bank will want to go on that journey, but there are plenty of banks that do and we're working with a number of them.

Jim Marous:

So many traditional financial institutions are trying to decide whether to convert their existing back office to a more digital platform or build an entirely separate organization, a different digital bank with its own future ready core. Chase who you're working with, abandoned the separate unit in the US while building a digital bank in the UK. If you were in the traditional banking role again, what path would you take? Would you put a new core on an existing platform or an existing organization, or would you separate the digital bank from the traditional bank?

Antony Jenkins:

So I think the best path for doing this is to create a new bank to the side because then you can test out this technology in a relatively controlled environment and then using the multi-tenant capability I described, progressively bring elements of the old bank into the new bank. And ultimately you can then shut the old bank down. That I think is the most effective way to do it. It's the most cost effective way, it's the lowest risk way to do it. And it allows the bank to essentially reinvent itself in a controlled way. If you try and get in there and fix the legacy, it's going to be very, very complicated, time consuming, expensive and high risk. And this is exactly why if you think about the automotive industry in the seventies and eighties, they massively invented themselves through the use of robotics, its very similar to that type of approach. Because the approach allows people, allows humans, inside these banks to learn these new technologies and get comfortable with them and it reduces that kind of fear and that barrier to action that you were alluding to before.

Jim Marous:

Well it's interesting, it jump starts the whole legacy leadership issue too. Because if you're building a separate organization, you, by its own nature, say "I'm going to let go of all my previous thoughts and going to build something different." One thing that's interesting and I'm going to get into Chase just a little bit here, is that their scale of growth has been extraordinary since they entered the UK market. I mean they have many, as I mentioned in our intro, they have more customers at a faster pace than I think even in some cases they expected. But to be able to do that, you need to build a core that is built for speed and scale. What differentiation do you bring to the table to help organizations that want to grow that quickly?

Antony Jenkins:

Yeah. And I obviously can't talk about any specific bank or clients, but one of the things that we did, I alluded to the core design principles of the business, the customer-centric architecture, the microservices, the multi tenant, which is the predicate for a lot of the 10x benefits. But the other thing that we did from day one, because we came from the big bank background, we knew that we couldn't just build some MVP that stood off to the side. We had to build something that was enterprise grade, that would scale, that was capable of hosting and processing... Hosting millions of customers, processing tens of millions of transactions. And again, when you design that in from day one, it's a lot easier than trying to retrofit it two or three years down the track when you realize you've been a lot more successful than you thought you were going to be. So we designed both functionally and non functionally a platform that would serve the largest banks in the world. And we did that from day one and that's what we've been able to stand up for our clients around the world.

Jim Marous:

It's interesting, in working with a lot of third party providers, right now, we're in a very interesting time. I look back now and think, "Boy Covid was a challenge, but from a solution provider perspective it had a lot more to do with where people worked than what they invested in." We're in a different time period now with the economy and a lot of do doubt with regards to the economy. How is your organization dealing with scenario planning around the possible shifts in the marketplace, including the unknowns of the economic shutdown as well as entry of potentially major tech companies or brand new competition?

Antony Jenkins:

Well, one of the things about founding a company after 30 odd years in business is you have a lot of experience of the ups and downs, the unexpected. And so I've always run this business in a conservative fashion. And the example I'll give is it was very important to me that we got the platform live because you can talk a great game about customer centric architecture and microservice and so on, it doesn't really matter until somebody can see it in action with real customers on it. And so that end was our focus all the way up to the middle of last year really, to get live with Chase here in the UK and Westpac in Australia, which we did successfully.

And I've positioned the business so that if more clients than we expect show, we know how to deal with that. If less clients show, we know how to deal with that. There are random things that we have to deal with like the exchange rate, the $/£ exchange rate moves as it has done, that's a few hundred thousand pounds of extra costs that we have to figure out how to absolve. We've got inflation to deal with. But I've run businesses for many years. These are not new challenges. There's more volatility perhaps. There's more focus now, I think, from the investment community on businesses that can have a path to profitability. But I always thought about having a path to profitability. For me, there was no merit in having a billion dollars of revenue and losing half a billion dollars of revenue. That didn't make sense to me, ever. So I think it's just about good business management, common sense, knowing where you're taking risk and managing that risk appropriately.

Jim Marous:

So two concepts that are often discussed, but more often mystifying, are the concepts of super app platforms and embedded finance. What do you see as the impact for the shift from transactional banking to engagement banking, where the interactions are more important than the transactions, and the scope of what financial institutions can provide?

Antony Jenkins:

Yeah. Yeah, there's a lot of fancy jargon there, but it boils down to common sense. As I said at the start of this interview, many times financial services is confusing to customers. It's intimidating, there's a lot of jargon, there's a lot of terms, but actually people just want to do something important to them in their lives. And if you can find a way to do it much better, then you will be successful as a provider. And this is why by now pay later has been so successful because at the point of sale you can essentially finance the purchase of a relatively low ticket item and you can do it instantly in a very easy way. There's no obvious cost to you because the retailer pays for it. In many ways it's as old as the hills. That point of sale finance as old as the hills. And of course people could pull out a credit card and do it, but it's just so much easier. And for people, they adopt those things.

It's like contactless payments. Yeah, sure you can get your card out and stick it in a reader and put a pin code in, but so much easier to tap, particularly in things like taxis and fast food restaurants and so on. So for me, it all boils down to what is the customer experience and how can you make that better than doing it the old fashioned way? And that's why we designed the technology the way we did because it's designed to enable that.

I'm in London and it's the afternoon here, I just had lunch with somebody and he was saying how frustrated he was because he had a credit card with a big bank, he also had a savings account, he had quite a lot of money in the savings account, but the credit card company wanted to bring his credit line down because he didn't use the card very much and they thought he was a bad credit risk. But he's saying, "I've got all this money over here in your bank. I'm not a bad credit risk," but the bank couldn't connect the two things. Now, that's incredibly frustrating for him as a customer because it took him a long time to sort it out. But it's very bad for the bank because its damaged the relationship between him and the bank. But also it's cost them a lot of money.

And this is one of the things I always say to analysts that track bank stocks, next time you're sitting with a bank CEO or CFO, ask them about the cost of defect in their business because it's huge. The number of calls that that customer put in to customer service and talking to management about... It's thousands of pounds. So it's good for the bank if you can make an experience for the customer that is powerful and meets their needs in a way that can't be met or can't easily be met in other ways, you'll not only create greater loyalty and generate more revenue, you'll save yourself cost. And so this is where the magic lies, if you like, where the benefits of 10x banking come from. And all these terms, I think, boil down to the same thing, serve the customer better and you'll win their business.

Jim Marous:

Let's take a short break here and recognize the sponsor to this podcast. When we get back, we're going to talk a little bit about the integration of data analytics to build those customer experiences you're talking about.

So welcome back. I am joined today by Antony Jenkins, CEO and founder of 10x Banking. We've been discussing the keys to being a future ready bank in a new digital banking ecosystem and whether existing banks can move quickly enough. So Antony, right before the break we were talking about making better customer experiences and we played around or we moved around the circle of the use of data analytics, a concept that's talked about but very infrequently put into action. It's the use of data analytics and insight to drive personal engagement. Even the biggest banks I've had on the podcast have talked about the fact that this is really the holy grail, being able to deploy analytics so the customer knows that you know them as opposed to just simply making great reports. How do you see organizations dealing with these challenges going forward?

Antony Jenkins:

Yeah, so if you think about financial products, they are just data and banks have masses of amounts of data inside them. The problem is they can't easily get at it to run the analysis and then take action off the back of it. So most banks invest huge amounts of money and people in extracting data from the core processing systems, putting it in a data lake, cleaning it up before they can then run analytics, produce reports, and take action off the back of it. Cycle times on these things can be measured in weeks and months. And that's particularly important when as now, we're in challenging economic times, where you really want to see how the customer's behavior is changing so that if the customer's getting into difficulty, you can intervene and help them before things get too bad.

So what we've done in our platform is we've create... Everything is real time. So every time the customer makes a transaction, we can see it in real time and we can stream that data to the bank in real time. So no more waiting to go and pull the batch runs from the core processing systems. If the bank can't consume it in real time, we can also send them a batch file overnight or whatever. But this means that they can not only access the data more quickly, but because the data is all connected to the customer, they've got a complete picture of that customer's activity on the platform. So, that then allows them to apply analytics.

But that's only half the story. The other half of the story is having apply those analytics, you then want to be able to take action, and again, you can push action back into the platform in real time. So unlike a business... I spent a lot of my career in the credit card business, at this time, credit card companies will be looking hard at customers line usage and deciding where they need to reduce customers lines on credit cards. But that's still a batch process that could take a couple of weeks to do the analysis and then another week or so to push the changes through. On our platform, we can stream you the data, you can make the decisions and then you can pull those lines down in real time. Obviously you have to advise the customer and follow all the regulatory requirements, but the actual time it takes to initiate the credit line reduction is almost instant. So the ability to use data crucially depends on being able to access it and our platform provides that access very quickly and easily.

Jim Marous:

It's interesting, because I look at the industry though, a lot of firms have the data, have the analytics, have the insight into the customer, but it's that final mile. It's developing concepts, communications, engagements that use those insights to drive activity, to drive engagements, to drive action. And a lot of organizations really are challenged, if they're not already challenged by the dead analytics side, they're challenged by the fact that while information's available, they really haven't found a good way to communicate how the customer should act next. So it'd be like you put Google Maps on your GPS, it gives you all the information, but it doesn't tell you when to make the turns. How do you see financial institutions, especially traditional financial institutions, building this final mile?

Antony Jenkins:

Yeah, its like what we were talking about before, the shape, the organizational shape of a bank going forward and the people within it will look very different to how it looks today. In fact, in many cases the banks haven't even bothered to develop that sort of hyper creative offer positioning because it's irrelevant. They don't have the ability to offer those new services to the customer in anything like a timeframe that would be relevant.

One of the classic examples is shopping at supermarkets, in this country we've got several large supermarket chains. I see you shop at Sainsburys, heres a 20% off for the next month at Tesco's, right. Another supermarket. There's no point in running that analysis today because by the time you put all that together and push it out for customer, it could be two or three months and they might change their behavior. So this is a product of the legacy technology and the organizational structures that support it, more than anything else. When you change that technology then you could have a whole bunch of people just sitting around thinking up great offers for the customer based on their behavior. And that might be, "Oh, I see you're making payments to three credit card companies. Why don't we consolidate those onto a loan and bring down your interest costs by two-thirds," for example. Now, that is technically possible today and some banks have attempted it, but it's very slow and very clunky. What you'd want to be able to do is position that offer in the app to the customer. So it's essentially a clicking and you're done. And so without the underpinnings of technology, it's very difficult to deliver those sort of real time activities.

Jim Marous:

Yeah, what's interesting is I'm a banker by trade and started in the banking industry and I never take that mindset away from you. I'm always remembering how banks do things. I'm sure you do the same thing. You're very familiar with the way traditional banks do things. So if you're looking at financial institutions today and FinTech firms today, what's the most important area that financial institutions and FinTech organizations should be working on today to be prepared for the future?

Antony Jenkins:

I think it goes back to that basic sensibility that I was talking about at the start of this interview, where why don't banks serve their customers better? That's the fundamental question. All this technology is just a set of tools to do that, right. People have a set of needs in their financial lives, it depends on their life stage, how affluent they are and so on. But almost everybody needs somewhere to have a salary or a pension paid into. Almost everybody spends money on food and housing, et cetera. So how can we optimize that? And it's really going back to the first principles and saying, "Okay, if I could make that so much easier for the customer, then I'm going to have no problem with adoption." It's a bit like the difference between going to Blockbuster and renting a DVD and streaming content on Amazon Prime or Netflix. Why is that so much better? Because I don't have to leave my house and because I've got vast amount of content that I can consume. A much better experience. And we need the banking analogs of those things. And that really goes to taking the stress out of people's finance for them and making sure they make the best possible decisions for them and their families.

Right now in this country, unlike the US where people are able to access 30 year mortgages and a lot of people locked in really low rates during the covid crisis, in this country, most people are on one to five year fixed mortgages. As those interest rates come off people are facing really significant increase in their housing costs. How can financial institutions help them with that? How can they find the best possible deal for that individual customer? So those are the sorts of use cases that you could begin to imagine, but you can't do them without the ability to access the data, process the data, make decisions on the data, and then crucially push it back to the customer in something like real time. The equivalent of sitting in your living room and deciding what you're going to stream that night on Netflix or Amazon Prime.

Jim Marous:

So finally, Antony, what excites you right now in the marketplace? Either the financial marketplace or overall in the marketplace that really, really builds an idea of what the future's going to be. One thing, as I mentioned at the beginning of our discussion was that you always had a really keen eye on what the future's going to bring, what is the future going to bring for financial institutions?

Antony Jenkins:

Yeah, I have a very broad view of that and my view is for every crisis there's an opportunity, right. So one of the things that came out of Covid was we suddenly all got comfortable working from home. For many years people had said, "Oh, if people work at home, they're all going to be idling away and watching daytime TV in their pajamas and stuff." Clearly not the case, right. I mean, we've done incredible work, the team here at 10x, through the crisis of Covid. And the interesting thing about that is we all think about Zoom or platforms like the one we're using today, actually, that wasn't the key enabler of this. It was the fact that we all had broadband at home and we could use that to communicate with each other. So that's one thing that I'm excited about, that it's allowed us to think about work differently and hopefully create a better work life balance for folks.

The second thing that I'm really excited about is for all the terrible things that are happening in Ukraine, I think it's finally woken people up to the fact that dependency on fossil fuels is a significant problem and we're going to see acceleration. You can see that in the US energy self sufficiency, and particularly green energy self sufficiency. And we're going to see that here in Europe as well. And that's a good thing.

And then finally I'd say that what interests me about financial services is what I call stacking, where you get technologies stacking on top of each other to create real benefit. And that is a combination of things like apps, it's a combination of 5G, its a combination of cloud, and all the cloud tooling that goes along with the cloud native world. And now we are really starting to see the benefit of those things for the customer. And I will give you an example, it's a personal example. I, of course, am a Chase customer here in the UK where they launched their savings product. I knew they were going to do it, but my team told me they'd launched that day. I was able to go into my Chase app and with one click open a savings account. That is unbelievably good for me as a customer because what it does is it reduces the barrier to action. So customers know that they should have less money in their checking account, more money in their savings account, but it's a chore to go and open a savings account and then move it between the two of them. For me, it was a click or two and I was done. And that's good for me as a customer because I make money on my savings.

So I think that this stacking of technologies is finally going to create a financial services industry that actually works for the customer. So these are the sort of things that I'm really excited about for the future.

Jim Marous:

It's interesting, Antony, and you mentioned it, that our experiences during Covid woke us all up to what the possible is. You mentioned Netflix and Hulu and things like that, that I'm really used to. You discussed the Chase account opening process and I usually reference the Apple card opening process, that it is so much different than what you're used to. But the consumer now is not catching up to the banking industry. Banking industry is catching up to consumers, who understand... There's a lot of times I'm at a party or something like this and somebody goes, "Why can't banks do X?" Referenced in the fact that, "Oh, they have it everywhere else. Why can't banks take what they know about me and make my life easier?" And I think the frustration is going to finally show and people are going to actually get off just sitting back and letting it happen to them and demand better.

And you brought up a great example of Chase's account opening process. It takes most organizations 15 minutes to open a new account even if you're an existing customer, which is insane. Because the whole first end of it, is identifying yourself that you've already done by being a customer. So I'm looking forward to what's up in the future. Antony, I really appreciate you being on the show today. And also I appreciate you sharing your thoughts because you were right 10 years ago and you're probably going to be right 10 years from now. So great. Thanks for being on the show.

Antony Jenkins:

Thanks. I really appreciate it.

Jim Marous:

Thanks for listening to Banking Transform the winner of three international awards for podcast excellence. I really appreciate the support you've provided since we started this endeavor. If you enjoy our show, please be sure to provide a positive review on your favorite podcast platform. Also, be sure to catch my [inaudible 00:39:08] in articles on the Financial Brand and check out the research we're doing for the Digital Bank Report.

This has been a production of Evergreen podcast. A special thank you to our producer Leah Haslage, audio engineer Sean Rule-Hoffman, and video producer Will Pritts. I'm your host, Jim Marous.

Until next time remember, now more than ever banking needs to have the right technology to meet the changing needs of the consumer now and into the future.