Driving Growth with a Financial Marketing Playbook

Jim Marous (00:12):

Hello, and welcome to Banking Transformed, the top podcast in retail banking. I'm your host, Jim Marous, Owner and CEO of the Digital Banking Report and co-publisher of The Financial Brand.

Jim Marous (00:21):

Technological Advances, regulatory changes, and rising consumer expectations have led to a tidal wave of challenges, especially for financial marketers. While most marketers focus on the technology to drive results, research shows that change in your legacy mindset is far more important.

Jim Marous (00:41):

The foundation to drive growth in today's competitive and cultural landscape is a playbook that will help you build a brand that drives loyalty and advocacy, stand out with breakthrough content and campaigns, develop a better understanding of what works and what doesn't, drive more efficiency from your paid media budget and foster entrepreneurial culture in your team to move faster and stay on top of change.

Jim Marous (01:08):

We are so fortunate to be rejoined by Eric Fulwiler, Co-Founder and CEO of the marketing consultancy, Rival. We will discuss what drives growth of successful FinTech and banking brands and where a financial marketer should start.

Jim Marous (01:23):

Why are some banking industry brands growing so much faster than others during this time of massive change? There are many reasons, but it's undeniable that the ability to embrace change and challenge the status quo on all levels of the financial institution is a significant driver of success.

Jim Marous (01:42):

Eric Fulwiler and his team at Rival have taken the expertise and examples from successful financial brands across the globe and distilled it into a simple, clear, actionable steps you can take to think and act like a challenger at speed and at scale.

Jim Marous (01:58):

So, Eric, welcome back to Banking Transformed. It's really hard to believe that the last time you were on this show was in September of 2021. A lot has happened since then, both in your life, my life, and in certainly in the industry. Could you share a little bit about yourself and your agency, and then tell us a little bit about what has happened in the last a year and a half since we last met.

Eric Fulwiler (02:23):

Well, first of all, thank you for having me back. And it's funny, Jim, because it doesn't feel that far away and time is a weird warp these days. But I think also, I just lose track of which conversations we have that are recorded and which ones aren't.

Jim Marous (02:38):

Oh, exactly.

Eric Fulwiler (02:38):

We need to get a mic in the room whenever we meet. So, yeah, a few changes in my life, I had a different job the last time I was on the podcast. I was the Chief Marketing Officer at 11:FS at that point, and for about almost three years previously. And since then I've launched Rival.

Eric Fulwiler (02:58):

So, we are a marketing strategy and technology business, there's two parts to what we do. We are a consultancy that's focused on developing marketing strategies for companies within financial services and also outside of financial services.

Eric Fulwiler (03:13):

So, we do a lot around brand strategy, product positioning, go to market plan and customer acquisition. We're doing a ton right now around first party data management and MarTech roadmap mapping. I think companies need a lot of help on that front. So, you can think of that side of the business as like a very mini boutique McKinsey for the marketing function, if you will.

Eric Fulwiler (03:34):

The other side of the business is technology. So, we raised a small round of funding at the end of last year to build kind of like a Google Labs for marketers internally. So, based on the consulting work we do and the needs we see in the market, we're spinning up and out different MarTech solutions.

Eric Fulwiler (03:52):

And the thing for us — I mentioned we do a lot of work in financial services with either a lot of FinTechs and challengers to help them scale or incumbent businesses like JPMorgan, Q2, Bechtel, Old Mutual Insurance, et cetera, to really help them innovate within marketing.

Eric Fulwiler (04:09):

But the big thing for us and what we're fascinated by, and I know we're going to talk a lot about today, is the pace of change is only speeding up. There is so much disruption, so much change happening, technology, the competitive set culture within the industry, talent, there's so many things changing.

Eric Fulwiler (04:26):

I think any business, regardless of scale or stage has two choices. You can either take advantage of that change or you can be taken advantage by it. And that's really the North Star for us, understanding why categories are changing and why certain businesses are able to take advantage of it, and others aren't.

Eric Fulwiler (04:45):

And of course, at the end of the day, one of the things that I always say, the best marketing is a great product. Of course, a lot of these successful challengers or successful incumbents that are able to innovate, it's because of the products they're bringing to market.

Eric Fulwiler (04:58):

But in order to fulfill the potential of your business, it is about innovation within product and marketing. And as I know we're going to get into, marketing is much broader than I think a lot of people think, particularly within technology businesses.

Jim Marous (05:14):

It's interesting Eric, we've talked about it since the last time we're on, we've talked about it since then many times in conversation we've had — is you can buy the technology or the product knowledge that you want, but at the end of the day, it really is going to get down to mindset. And that sounds very esoteric and very out there.

Jim Marous (05:29):

But the reality is if we look at any financial institution, any FinTech, any challenger, any tech company right now, the ability to move at the pace of change and to embrace the fact that that change is going to happen, whether or not you get on board or not, really defines the winners and the losers.

Eric Fulwiler (05:49):

The companies that I love to interview, as you mentioned, are not defined by size but by the mindset of the leadership. And I would imagine that very quickly upon the first call or the first visit with an organization that wants to use you, you know pretty much whether or not they're ready, don't you?

Eric Fulwiler (06:09):

Yes, the reason I hesitate — well, I'll throw a couple things out there. I really believe that as a consulting firm, or if you're listening and you're on the brand side, thinking about hiring a consultancy, an agency, culture fit should be just as important as it would be if you were hiring someone for your team. Because the best work, the most effective output, and also the times that you have the most fun are when there's a fit, not just in capability, but also in culture.

Eric Fulwiler (06:35):

And so, I think that's something that we're looking for, we're 20 people, we're boutique. We luckily get to pick and choose a bit who we work with; we work with four or five clients at any given time. So, I do think that that is a big part of it, and we can kind of get the sense.

Eric Fulwiler (06:50):

And it's interesting, that expression of growth within a category is a race between challengers getting to scale and incumbents getting innovation, and we help on both sides of that. And on the one hand, it's really exciting to be working with a high growth scale up to help them get to the next level with their brand, their customer acquisition, their marketing function overall.

Eric Fulwiler (07:12):

But man, there is something so enticing about a business that already has the scale, that just needs the innovation. And so, I guess what I'm saying is, I don't think you always know at first glance, I think the most important thing is not necessarily the logo on the door of the company, but who the person is sitting in that seat, there you go, and to what you said, what's the mindset and what's the change agenda that they have internally?

Jim Marous (07:39):

Because it really gets down to the fact that it's the difference between the walk and the talk, and we all know what needs to be done, we're just not sure if we really truthfully want to embrace it. It gets back to my analogy of the doctor, when you go to the doctor and the doctor says you have to change your eating habits, change your workout patterns, you know this, this is not rocket science.

Jim Marous (08:02):

You eat less calories or you walk off more calories and you're going to do better, and you change your consumption patterns. It's going to make you healthier, make you less healthy. There's no rocket science to that, but that doesn't mean that everybody does it.

Jim Marous (08:15):

And it's the same way in banking, I see many institutions that have great technology, great ideas, but they never get to the street and never get implemented the way they should because the organization really doesn't want to succeed, they don't want to say that. But the reality is they want to stay the way they were, maybe in the back office, maybe in the front office, and they're kicking and screaming on the way to the digital banking finish line.

Jim Marous (08:40):

So, you built a marketing playbook, what prompted you to publish a book at the end of last year and more importantly, could you share the four main principles that you believe drive effectiveness of the best challenger marketing and business growth?

Eric Fulwiler (09:00):

Sure, and I'll certainly touch on those. We published it last year so people can go reread it. I think I'm also going to riff a little bit about some of the feedback that I've seen from it, some of the things that I've seen since then, and just go from there.

Eric Fulwiler (09:15):

And before I get into that, I think the other thing I would say is, I don't think anybody would disagree with what we're talking about. And I listen to a lot of podcasts, people speaking on stage and things like that, and I think the thing that I would want to really land with people, is the only strategy that matters is the execution.

Eric Fulwiler (09:33):

The theory is easy to talk about, it's how do you actually get started getting started doing it. And much to your analogy of the doctor telling you how to eat healthy and go to the gym, it's not complicated, but it's hard. And change starts slowly and builds gradually.

Eric Fulwiler (09:46):

And so, one of the things that I really wanted to do with this playbook and with all the content that we put out is try to make it as actionable as possible. So, if we're up here talking about how mindset monitors more than model, I agree with that 1000%, but for you listening, in a business, how do you actually get started getting started on that journey?

Eric Fulwiler (10:10):

And so, there's some very, what I think are practical, tangible things that people can start doing for each of these principles.

Jim Marous (10:18):

Well, actually, and in your playbook, you not only describe the principles, but then you tell the financial institution, the financial marketing executive, what do you do in your first 90 days to get started? Which is so key because we can read books forever and go, "Yes, I get a lot, I love it all, where the F do I start?"

Jim Marous (10:37):

And the reality is, you actually put a pretty long part of the playbook into, "Okay, where do you start? What do you do in the first 90 days to get the momentum going?" Because just like a diet, it's not the first 30 days, but once you get to 90 days, maybe 120 days, it becomes more of a behavior and it becomes a lot easier to know where do I pivot next? What do I put as a priority?

Eric Fulwiler (11:03):

Yeah, there's a great book, because it's really all about behavior change, marketing externally, but also the culture that you build internally, it's about human beingsi and it's about perception change, and it's probably a tangent that we don't want to go down, but I'm a marketer by accident.

Eric Fulwiler (11:18):

I went to music school, I worked in nonprofits, and I somehow ended up doing this for the last 15 years of my life. And I spent 10 years of that in advertising agencies and I always felt out a place; these agency industry events, creative awards and stuff like that.

Eric Fulwiler (11:35):

Because I was like, "These people love advertising, I don't really care about advertising. What I'm fascinated by is how do you change human perception and behavior for a business outcome? How do you grow a business through the story that you tell?" And so, that's what fascinates me, that's what drives me.

Eric Fulwiler (11:53):

And so, I was going to throw it out there, if you haven't read the James Clear, Atomic Habits book ...

Jim Marous (11:57):

It's phenomenal.

Eric Fulwiler (11:58):

It's phenomenal. I don't think he's producing any of the scientific research that — he's really pulling it together from what's already out there.

Jim Marous (12:08):

He's got a great newsletter, and he's an Ohioan. He is based in Columbus, Ohio, and he's working on a second book. But the number of times I reference that book, because if you can't apply it to yourself and those atomic habits, would mean the little things that end up being a big freaking deal in a year, it's so inspirational from that perspective.

Eric Fulwiler (12:32):

But I'm also fascinated by just the amount of concept of content and knowledge that we consume on any given day, particularly with where the world is today and how little of it actually translates into action. And so, I would say, you could listen to us talk and people do, your podcast is great. Do one thing differently.

Eric Fulwiler (12:51):

Do one thing differently. If any of this resonates with you, it's about speed, it's about moving faster, it's about mindset and model. I don't know what the answer is for you, I have some suggestions based on my experience in this playbook.

Eric Fulwiler (13:03):

But what is the one thing that you're actually going to do differently? Because if you do one thing differently based on this 30, 40-minute conversation, that's already so much more than probably a lot of what you've ingested over the rest of the day or the rest of the week.

Jim Marous (13:17):

That's great, so what were the four main principles in your book?

Eric Fulwiler (13:21):

So, the four main principles for me, starting with relevance and that provides the foundation. Next is differentiation. And this is where I think a lot of financial services but particularly FinTech businesses, technology businesses get it wrong, or I should say they don't go far enough.

Eric Fulwiler (13:42):

The best brands, if you just take a second and think about even within your world of what you do professionally, but even just the brands in your life, the ones that are going to be the most powerful for you are the ones that have something that's different from their competitors.

Eric Fulwiler (13:59):

And most businesses, I think stop at the point of what's great about what we do, not what's great about what we do that other people don't. And so, a lot of the brand strategy work that we do is kind of taking that starting point of what is the functional and emotional benefit of the product that you offer, but taking it further to really come up with a sharp, clear point of difference that you can own in the market. So, relevance, differentiation, analytical is the next one.

Eric Fulwiler (14:26):

So, they say marketing is a blend of art and science, creative and math. And most businesses are not doing nearly enough to leverage the data that's out there, to generate insights to make their marketing more effective, but actually, also generate insights from marketing to make their product more effective as well.

Eric Fulwiler (14:52):

One of the things that I'm really passionate about is that marketing should be seen as and set up to be an innovation function within a business, not just a distribution function. It's not just about bringing a product to market, it's about bringing that understanding of the market to the product as well to help inform what you do.

Eric Fulwiler (15:10):

Lastly, dynamic. As I said at the very beginning and the whole thing that drives what we do here at Rival, the world is changing so quickly that is only going to speed up not slow down. For your marketing function, much like with your product, you need to have things set up so that you're able to understand change that's happening around you, and the mindset and the model to be able to adapt to it and evolve your brand, your positioning, your content, your paid media.

Eric Fulwiler (15:34):

All the facets of your marketing engine, they need to move quickly to be able to take full advantage of opportunity when it presents itself.

Jim Marous (15:43):

And they're presenting themselves so quickly. It's interesting, Eric, in all four of them, it's one thing to do it so that you know your customer, that you're differentiating your customer, they have the numbers and that you can pivot. It's another thing to make it so your customers know you're relevant, you're personalized, you're dynamic, you have the numbers that prove what you're trying to do and that you're differentiated.

Jim Marous (16:10):

I get so frustrated that I know my two banks that I use primarily, know me, understand me, and can reward me for my business. Unfortunately, they never show me that they know me. And I think the consumer's (I don't know if you agree with this) becoming more and more frustrated with organizations that they know, know them but provide no value based on that knowledge.

Jim Marous (16:37):

I mean, I get relevance every day with Hulu from the standpoint of them knowing me and continually referring to what I should watch next or what I probably would like watching next based on how it knows me. Every consumer knows the difference between a streaming service and the old cable companies.

Jim Marous (16:54):

But the reality is a finance institution also knows everything about me, but infrequently do they ever show me that they know me. And therefore, it's lost, that final mile and the ability to make it so it's actually, instead of transactional, actually engaging is a really missed opportunity, I believe, don't you?

Eric Fulwiler (17:15):

Totally agree, and also to that anecdote, and it's interesting you use the example of Hulu because those expectations of what a brand, what a product or service should offer to you are being set outside the category as well as inside the category. So, it's not just about Wells Fargo versus Bank of America, it's about Wells Fargo versus Hulu or Amazon or these technology businesses that are so much better at being relevant, differentiated, analytical and dynamic.

Eric Fulwiler (17:42):

But I think the other thing that I would throw out there, like if you had to ask me one thing that I think matters most to modern marketing, it's about focusing on adding value to the audience you're trying to reach.

Eric Fulwiler (17:55):

So, we've jammed on this a few times, it was my big philosophy at 11:FS, and also, what led us to do the marketing playbook, to your original question. I think that modern marketing is about thinking and acting more like a media company than a marketer.

Eric Fulwiler (18:10):

And the biggest distinction there for me is that the traditional cliché, Don Draper, and by the way, you'd be amazed at how much of the traditional advertising world still looks and feels that way.

Jim Marous (18:20):

Oh God, yes.

Eric Fulwiler (18:20):

It's focused on extracting value, I've got a product, how do I get people to come to me to do this thing X, Y and Z? I think the best brands are the ones that do the things that I mentioned, but wrapped around all of that is this ethos or this north star of how do we add value?

Eric Fulwiler (18:39):

And the reason I say that that's more like a media company is because the business model of a media company is attention. Media companies, financial brands, Forbes, where I used to work, they're in the business of attracting, retaining, and then monetizing attention. So, the only way that they succeed is by putting out content or events, communities that add so much value that people choose to spend time with them over somebody else.

Eric Fulwiler (19:08):

And as you know, building a podcast, and as we know, starting one for Rival, attention is the scarcest and most valuable commodity out there right now for any business. And so, I think it's a slight shift, but it has dramatic differences in what you do. If you think about how can I build a media company around my brand versus how can I market a product?

Eric Fulwiler (19:30):

And that means that you're thinking about how can I add value through the content communication experiences that I create, not how can I extract value. Now, at the end of the day, the role of marketing is to drive growth of a business. You're not building a charitable media company. But it's the difference of short-term, long-term. If in the short-term, you're focused on adding value, I believe more value will come back to you in the long term.

Jim Marous (19:54):

We're going to come back to that after the break, but let's take a short break here and recognize the sponsor of this podcast.

[Music Playing]

Jim Marous (20:02):

Welcome back, I'm joined today by Eric Fulwiler, Co-Founder and CEO of the marketing consultancy firm, Rival. We've been discussing how banks, credit unions and FinTech firms must build a challenger mindset similar to leaders in other industries.

Jim Marous (20:16):

So, Eric, before we took a break, we were talking about the difference between building content and building a brand, and being more like a media company than maybe a product sales company.

Jim Marous (20:29):

When you look at the potential going down the path and you look at ... I want engagement and that engagement may not be the next most likely product. It may be actually answering or helping me solve a financial wellness concern that I have as a consumer, yet fewer organizations have built the content library to be able to answer that question.

Jim Marous (20:52):

Well, that whole scenario has changed vastly since ChatGPT was introduced in November 30th of last year and has been updated March 23rd and a week ago last Friday. To build relevant content that can be relevant, can be personalized, can be dynamic, can be ever-changing, and can in effect have the ability to help me move forward financially, and as you said right before the break, and oh by the way, that will generate business.

Jim Marous (21:26):

So, how, if at all, does that change your marketing playbook, the introduction of ChatGPT?

Eric Fulwiler (21:35):

I think it has the potential to change it drastically, and also, I'm not sure it really changes it at all. And what I mean by that is, I think marketing at the end of the day today, last year, 10 years ago, 1000 years ago, it's all the same thing. It's how do you tell a story to change perception and behavior to deliver business results? The fundamentals of that are human fundamentals.

Eric Fulwiler (22:01):

What makes people change their perception, what makes people change their behavior, how you execute those fundamentals has changed over time. AI, social media, the web, print, TV, et cetera. So, I think it's more of a technology layered on top of strong, simple fundamentals done well, and that's where more of the playbook is focused. Those strong fundamentals done well.

Eric Fulwiler (22:27):

Now, AI is going to massively disrupt. The way that I think about it — anything that is a written word and soon things that aren't; visuals, spoken word, et cetera — but right now, anything that is written word has the potential to be disrupted by AI. I'd say a couple things on top of that.

Eric Fulwiler (22:46):

When it comes to looking at future technologies, emerging trends, et cetera, I always believe that the bigger and more important opportunity for a business and brand is to react quickly to opportunities that come up rather than trying to predict where they're going to go.

Eric Fulwiler (22:59):

So, I don't think it's about saying, I think AI is going to do this in five years, it's more about what can you do right now? What can you do next month? How can you get started getting started, getting your hands dirty as a marketer, playing around with it, testing it, starting to figure it out for yourself and get a firsthand perspective. Don't just listen to people like me or you or read the headlines, actually get your hands dirty with it.

Eric Fulwiler (23:23):

I think the other thing that's interesting because obviously we're playing around with it and using it a lot in our work. It takes it 80 to 90% of the way there, but not 100% of the way there, that's kind of my general consensus. Now, a lot of the time and money that goes into content production can be replaced to 80 to 90%, and then the human being needs to take over.

Eric Fulwiler (23:48):

But at the end of the day, good content, quality content that adds value will always find an audience, whether that comes from AI or whether that comes from humans. And the most potential right now is to leverage the technology to the best that it can do but I think still have a human layer to it. It's a combination of both.

Jim Marous (24:10):

Yes, definitely, and I think a lot of organizations have not been able to build a good content library that they can point people to, to help them with the financial needs.

Jim Marous (24:19):

Well, ChatGPT has the ability to build these conversations and to learn over time very quickly without getting into the whole compliance and regulatory area, which really gives financial institutions a leg up in their ability to communicate with customers that don't come into the branch anymore.

Jim Marous (24:37):

I think to your point, your playbook becomes more important because none of the fundamentals change. It just may be the way you implement against them and the speed at which you do.

Jim Marous (24:48):

So, you mentioned it early in the podcast that there's significant changes that a financial marketer is going to have to embrace, but there's so many — even in your relatively concise playbook, there are so many items you unearth, you bring to light and say, "You got to do this, you got to do this."

Jim Marous (25:06):

So, getting back to one of your first comments, you got to start somewhere. Where should a financial marketer start today, at the end of this podcast to make a difference at their organization that can help those growth and a competitiveness?

Eric Fulwiler (25:23):

So, as you know, I also host a podcast, actually we have two podcasts. But the main one that I host is called Scratch. And it's me talking to CMOs for the most part, sometimes entrepreneurs about how they're approaching modern marketing.

Eric Fulwiler (25:36):

And the reason it's called Scratch is because I think what defines a challenger, and you said it before, it's not really about size or scale or even appetite to risk in these things that get talked about, those tend to correlate with challengers, but they're not definitive.

Eric Fulwiler (25:53):

What defines a challenger is the willingness to think about the world from scratch for how it is today versus how it was in the past. So, most incumbents to dramatically generalize are businesses that were built for a market, a consumer, a technology, a talent pool that existed in the past.

Eric Fulwiler (26:15):

You know, the term tech debt, I believe the same thing applies to marketing. Marketing debt exists within these big organizations because it's been built layer by layer over time, and it needs to be ripped, replaced, or rebuilt to be fit for purpose for how the world is right now.

Jim Marous (26:30):

Oh, and actually, if the marketer's been there for anything more than five years, part of that ripping out is our own mindset because the marketing world has changed so much in the last five years.

Eric Fulwiler (26:42):

And so, that day one thinking of Amazon and Jeff Bezos, that healthy ignorance to come in and say what I would recommend, which is how would I do things differently if I was to start them from scratch today? And that doesn't mean that you're going to replace all your people and throw out the playbook and start doing a thousand things new and different, but at least it gives you an understanding of where's the gap; where's the gap between how we're doing things right now and how we would do them so that they were fit for purpose for the world right now, and where that marketing debt exists so that you can start to pay it down.

Eric Fulwiler (27:17):

So, as one overarching thing besides reading the FinTech Marketing Playbook, of course I would say sit down and have that — it can be an hour of you writing down your thoughts, it can be 10 seconds as you're on your commute being like, "What would I do differently?" That's the question that you need to ask yourself, and I think that then leads to, well, what are you going to do about it, and start taking action.

Jim Marous (27:39):

So, we're running out of time, finally, how do they get ahold of you? How do they get ahold of the FinTech Playbook?

Eric Fulwiler (27:46):

So, hopefully we can link to it in the show notes, so it should be there; wearerival.com and I'm [email protected]. I also post a lot of stuff on LinkedIn, and I'm happy to connect with anyone who wants to reach out to me there or on email.

[Music Playing]

Jim Marous (28:01):

So, bottom line is, guys, we're going to actually have a link that helps you get started with the playbook. And Eric, it is always a pleasure to have a conversation with you, it's even better to have you on the show. It will not be that long again, hopefully, we'll see you in a week or so in Amsterdam, but if not, I'll be stopping by soon.

Eric Fulwiler (28:21):

Looking forward to it, Jim, thanks for having me on.

Jim Marous (28:24):

Thanks for listening to Banking Transformed, the winner of three international awards for podcast excellence. If you enjoy what we're doing, please be sure to give our show a positive review. Finally, be sure to catch the recent articles on The Financial Brand and check out the amazing research we're doing for the Digital Banking Report.

Jim Marous (28:41):

This has been a production of Evergreen Podcasts. A special thank you to our senior producer, Leah Haslage; audio engineer, Sean Rule-Hoffman, and video producer Will Pritts. I'm your host, Jim Marous.

Jim Marous (28:54):

Until next time, remember the words of Eric Fulwiler, don't challenge the market, change it.

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