Hacking Attention: Mastering Social Selling in Banking

Jim Marous (00:12):

Welcome to Banking Transformed, the top podcast in retail banking. I'm your host, Jim Marous. I'm delighted to have Dr. Robin Kiera, financial services marketing expert and author of the new book, Attention Hacking: The Power of Social Media Selling in Insurance and Finance on the Banking Transformed Podcast.

Jim Marous (00:31):

Robin discusses how social media isn't just for consumer goods but can be a powerful tool for financial services as well. Robin also shares insights from his book on how to make financial products go viral, the importance of becoming an influencer in your market, and why traditional marketing channels are fading away in favor of dynamic, strategic content on platforms like LinkedIn, TikTok, Facebook, and X.

Jim Marous (00:59):

Finally, Robin suggests that as technology and consumer behaviors evolve, so too must the strategies employed by financial professionals to remain relevant and successful.

Jim Marous (01:11):

There's been a seismic shift away from outdated marketing tactics towards engaging and personalized content that speaks directly to consumers' needs and aspirations. Even the most traditional products like financial services can capture the public's imagination and demand with strategic and highly creative online and digital marketing.

Jim Marous (01:34):

So, Robin, we've known each other for a number of years, and while we reside an ocean apart, we both have embraced the power of social media and getting our own messages out. So, before we start, can you share a little bit about yourself, your agency, and more importantly, your new book?

Robin Kiera (01:51):

Yes. Happy to do so. Most importantly to know is that I have a background in insurance and finance, worked in both industries, and what I'm a little bit proud on is I always say I'm an entrepreneur during the day and an influencer during the night.

Robin Kiera (02:08):

My wife would say it's exact other way around, but since she's not here yet, I can claim that I know am a entrepreneur full-time. And I'm actually a recovering insurance sales agent. So, I could still sell you if I wanted to. So, watch out for your liability insurance might get an upgrade.

Robin Kiera (02:26):

But I want to say is that after a really deep insight into what's really going on in insurance and finance, I also worked for a private bank for some time, so I cannot do anything else than insurance and finance. And at some point, I founded a blog that was just scouting. It went through the roof. We did a lot of social media. That's when we got to know each other.

Robin Kiera (02:44):

Like 2017, 2018, I wrote an article on small intro text that became a unicorn. So, we were both right, you for accepting my article and I'm from writing it, so we have to close to be super smart on that one. And at some point, insurers and banks came to me and said, "Robin, don't always complain about that, we are so lame and we're not doing modern marketing and stuff, and can you help us?"

Robin Kiera (03:09):

And I was like, "No, I'm never going to help you again." And then they were saying what they were or indicating what they were willing to pay. And then I was like, "Okay, Monday, eight o'clock. How does that sound?"

Jim Marous (03:20):

Well, what's interesting, Robin, because very much like me, you learned through doing. I mean, I started a podcast without knowing one thing about podcasting, I started running for The Financial Brand at the beginning of my blogging time when I was with a direct marketing agency. And mostly other things I've done in social have been learned through doing.

Jim Marous (03:39):

And I remember some of your early TikTok videos and some of your earlier marketing social media things with your custom design shoes and everything else in the insurance space. But when you look at the transformation, what motivated you to focus your expertise on the broader intersection of financial services, marketing, and social media?

Robin Kiera (04:04):

Well, I was really mad. I was mad at these old CEOs in C-suites standing on stage and saying, "Nobody will ever sell an insurance policy or a complex financial product via the internet." I was like, "Duh, that's what's going to happen. That's what happening right now, guys."

Robin Kiera (04:20):

And I was really mad and angry at this because it was endangering the future of these both great industries. And I was just trying to get the message out. We need to change, we need to improve, we need to innovate not for innovation sake, but for survivor's sake.

Robin Kiera (04:33):

And so, I choose social media, and I think I did the first selfie at an insurance conference, and I still remember one C-suite going by and saying, "Well, great, you do a selfie. I also saw you took the train to come here."

Robin Keira (04:45):

I was like, "Yes, but 40,000 other people too." And the funny thing is, years later down the road, he and his company became clients of ours. Of course, he needed to pay 10% extra for that remark or getting aside.

Robin Kiera (04:58):

And so, what my passion is, is to get the message out there. And it was really like well, I had the message, we need to innovate. And I really quickly found after my keynotes that other people in the industry that were still working at these large corporates are also rebels.

Robin Kiera (05:13):

There were rebels inside these organizations trying to innovate, to approve and that came to me. And I wanted to reach them all. And that's why I went to social media because traditional insurance magazines back in the days they did not take the message. So, I went to social media, and when you had a big enough following there, they followed too.

Robin Kiera (05:31):

And we have a B2B arm and a B2C arm. We are reaching … we have I think 700,000 followers. We reached up to 20 million people each month. It's really insane numbers not all B2B, but some are. So, that's really, really insane.

Robin Kiera (05:47):

And I think and why I’m de-passionate since I have been an insurance sales agent I remember people do not go to their friends and say, "Hey guys, I got a new term life insurance of 500,000 for my wife if I die." They don't celebrate this.

Robin Kiera (06:01):

But they still celebrate their stupid new phone or their car. I mean, I'm a German, I love cars, don't get me wrong, but it's an asset that goes down in value. It's not a strategic financially smart investment for most people.

Robin Kiera (06:14):

And I think in insurance and banking, we are wasting billions in bad marketing and still people don't like us while other industries which do not have the same benefit. I mean, banks, we help people to go through life financially and insurance are helping them in moments of crisis. So, there's a big dismatch between the actual significance if you look from it unemotionally and what the people think about us.

Robin Kiera (06:42):

And I think social media can play a role in order to change that. And we at Digitalscouting, we really have the mission. We want to change the way insurers and banks do marketing, and that we really become not only factually the center or important part of the life of our clients, but also emotionally. And that's my goal.

Jim Marous (07:01):

Well, it's interesting Robin, you are probably one of only two, in fact, I'm sure you're only one of only two people that I've had on as a guest who's had social media posts go viral. Gary Vaynerchuk, a friend of both of ours, certainly is one and you're the other.

Jim Marous (07:17):

And you and I both follow a lot of Gary's rules with regard to how to market, how to impact consumers, how to build content, and how to then deploy content in very unique ways. And in fact, I mentioned that you've had TikTok videos, that insane number of hits. You promote them and say, how many you get hits? And I go, "I got to check this." And it's all valid.

Jim Marous (07:40):

So, you're very creative in the way you do it. I'm not sure how your family takes it when it happens at all times in the night and day, I do know that. But when you look at legacy banks and insurers, they're doing social media and online marketing in a very different, much more conservative, much more traditional way.

Jim Marous (08:03):

What are they doing wrong with regard to social media strategies? If there's one general or two general viewpoints that you have that you say, "You know what, first off, you've got to stop doing this or you've got to start doing this." What are they?

Robin Kiera (08:18):

Two big mistakes? Big mistake number one is you give it just to your traditional agency that was very good in doing TV ads in the 80s, big mistake. Because they don't have a clue about social media, because if they would have a clue about social media, they would have millions of followers.

Robin Kiera (08:33):

The second one is you give it to your intern or to your niece that's 21-years-old, she or he may be young, but doesn't mean that they are super professionals. So, my big tip in this for decision makers is A, do it yourself.

Robin Kiera (08:49):

Really take the phone, do a video, try to edit it because what you see then is it's not easy to do a fun, small, short video is super hard. And then knowing the algorithm then to go viral, that's another one.

Robin Kiera (09:02):

But you need to be able to do it in order to see if the service providers or the internal experts actually know what they're talking about. And the second thing is in — but it's probably, I'm a little bit biased, that just get professionals on board that do it for you.

Robin Kiera (09:15):

It's easy. You can start tomorrow. You didn't know, you don't need to hire people. But since I have an agency that's maybe not a neutral perspective but that's my thing, do it yourself. Don't go to your traditional agency. Don't let an intern do it because the times, I mean, the competition of social media is brutal. It's brutal and you cannot send amateurs in there.

Jim Marous (09:37):

It's interesting, Robin, because not only is it brutal, but it's really always changing. I mean, just the dynamic around what the algorithm is going to be for Instagram, for LinkedIn, certainly for Google, it changes so quickly that unless you have an organization that is entirely focused on how to do better with social, you're not going to get there.

Jim Marous (10:02):

I mean, to your point, I am less biased because I don't have an agency of my own. But the reality is not only do you have to play in the mud yourself a little bit, but you've got to find an organization that really, really understands this space. And it's probably unlike a lot of traditional marketing, it's probably less important to find one that has financial services expertise, as it is to find those that have social media expertise. Would you agree?

Robin Kiera (10:30):

I really hate to disagree with you. I strongly believe you need to have some industry knowledge and you don't need to know all first names of the last 27 CEOs of that certain bank or insurer, that's not necessary. Or to know the org chart by heart.

Robin Kiera (10:48):

But what you need to know, you need to really understand how are, for example, retail banks, how is this organization ticking? How are agents and brokers if you're in the insurance space ticking? Because what you want to avoid is that the headquarters doing a funny campaign and all your big important multiple headerd are hating you for it or are rolling their eyes.

Robin Kiera (11:06):

So, I strongly believe you need to have people on board to really understand it. And what's super important is, you as an organization don't want to spend time to educate your agency or your partner or whatever in the ground rules of your industry. Average industry is like 30, 40% disapproval rate when there comes content.

Robin Kiera (11:28):

And I think we are at one because we know the industry, but also, for example, we have a lot of, sometimes people coming from other industries coming to us and say, "Hey, can you do this?" Like car for example, we say, no, there are others that are 10 times better at car. I drive one but that's about it.

Robin Kiera (11:43):

So, I really would say find somebody whose an expertise. In social it's the one thing and the other one in industry knowledge and try to help you there because you want that pain gets away from you. You don't want another headache; you want less headache.

Jim Marous (11:57):

Great point. And I would tend to say you're right on this one, I was wrong. So, in your book you discussed transitioning from interruption marketing, simply blowing out something dramatic to permission and attraction models, what does this mean?

Robin Kiera (12:13):

So, back in the days when there was almost nobody on social media, everybody could be successful with a little bit of content. I think my early success on all platforms was a little bit defined by that. But since competition is getting harder, you need to become better at it.

Robin Kiera (12:32):

What does it mean? One spontaneous post, it goes viral maybe once your life but if you want to repeat this, you need to really know the rules. And so, the demand of what people also spend their time with online becomes bigger and bigger and bigger. They want a bigger quality. They want almost small Hollywood movies to see. And so, I think that it's increasing quality. Was that the answer to your question?

Jim Marous (12:58):

Oh, it definitely is, yes. The fact that you need attraction models as opposed to simply interrupting and the same sense, why does, I should say, merely having a presence on social media no longer cut in compared to actually building evolving experiences.

Robin Kiera (13:18):

Well, just be … it's like just having an retail bank somewhere or an insurance agency if they don't do a good job, if they don't go out there to try to get people, attract people, what is this presence worth? Nothing.

Robin Kiera (13:31):

And you need to be there where the client is. You need to be in the channels where the client is. You need to be delivering the format they like. If they like video to video, if they like graphic to graphics, if they like end carved stone platters, do that.

Robin Kiera (13:46):

And it needs to have also some sorts of frequency. Every day, 13,000 advertisements are attacking us every single day. And then you as an insurer or bank just send a banking statement once a month or once a year for the life annuity policy or whatever, that's not going to cut it. And you need to be there where the client is.

Robin Kiera (14:09):

And the funny thing is, if we look at these super successful banks, for example, private banks, but also retail banks or insurers with agencies or direct insurers, they're constantly there where the client is. And I think that's a little bit the secret to take the recipes that worked really well in the old world and just take them and test them in digital and social and see it as a tool.

Robin Kiera (14:30):

It's not an attack on your business model. It's actually a great defense. And if you're smart, it is actually also an instrument to your offense.

Jim Marous (14:38):

So, it's interesting, Robin, in your book, and also in a lot of the content you publish online and digitally, you really talk about the fact that for lack of a better term, not all social channels are equal. There are certain social channels that do some things better than others.

Jim Marous (14:53):

There's some social channels that have gone up or down in value. And Gary V. talks about that quite a bit as far as the ability to capture attention. What specific social platforms do you think right now show the most promise in financial services?

Robin Kiera (15:13):

I would say if you are into B2B and you have not one top three LinkedIn account as a decision maker, subject matter expert or company, then it's time to get a new head of marketing. And if you are in B2C and you're not on TikTok, please fire your marketing department.

Robin Kiera (15:30):

Why? That's where the attention currently is. I have one side note Threads, the X competitor came out. I think it's always a bad sign when marketing departments are there first and not some users in some niche that then expands.

Robin Kiera (15:47):

I think Threads is interesting. If you are a bank or an insurer and want to play with the cool kids like Dr. Pepper or some other cool companies, then go there, that's cool but your customers are not there. And it really depends where your clients are and what I always say, never ask your clients where they are because they will lie.

Robin Kiera (16:07):

I mean, if you ask me what do you do? I say, “Of course, I reach Plato all day long.” I mean, I don't. I mean, I don't, I'm hanging around on TikTok and other things. But there are studies that show people answer things they think that are socially accepted, especially in these brutally political divided times, you can see this over and over.

Robin Kiera (16:31):

But what you should do, you should look what the people are doing. When you are in the airport or at a bus or a train, or if you are in a meeting, look what other people looking at. And I saw already that for example, TikTok had already way older user base than even TikTok knew, because I looked at what people were doing.

Robin Kiera (16:50):

And of course, a 55-year-old decision maker or the 40-year-old whatever, would never have admitted this one or two years ago. But I saw it pretty on their phones all the time that they were there. So, what I want to say with that is don't look people on the mouth, look on the hands what they're doing, but then you have a superpower because you're so far ahead of so many other peoples.

Robin Kiera (17:09):

And a lot of people are always saying to me in Germany, "Robin, you're such a genius. You were on Twitter so early; you were on LinkedIn so early and successful and on TikTok.” I was like, "Yes, I downloaded TikTok after a billion other people did that." I mean, I am not sure if I qualify for a Nobel Prize here but it's just people.

Jim Marous (17:27):

You may be the oldest one though.

Robin Kiera (17:30):

Really funny. One of my first really mean TikTok comments was, "Old dude, when are you finally going to die?" And I was 38 or something. I was like, "Really?” I was like, "Oh, my God, this is a little bit different than the insurance and finance bubble on Twitter, on LinkedIn." There was little rough street stuff going on there, but you just need to take it with a grain of salt.

Robin Kiera (17:49):

And to be quite honest, I know I have a face made for career in radio that I, after 40 become an influence on TikTok. I meet teenagers on the streets say, "Hey, Robin, nice to meet you." It's really, really humbling. And I know it's going to go away at some point, but I enjoy it every day until then.

Jim Marous (18:06):

Robin, Gary V. says this, I refer to him quite a bit in a lot of my podcasts, but Gary V. talks about the need to have a lot of content out there. That everybody plays it too casually. They maybe get in their niche as far as what they like to do is video or audio or written content. How important do you see multiple channels and him a lot? Do most financial institutions way underplay their social media hand?

Robin Kiera (18:39):

They surely do. I just had a look at the top 50 profiles of actually American decision makers in the banking industry for project we have internally for German bank. And I was shocked how little activity there was actually and there are only a few that did actually a good job.

Robin Kiera (18:57):

There was one guy who was really good at video, another woman was really good at tax, but even, I don't know, I forgot which CEO it was post every three months. Forget it, just stop. Just don't do it. But to answer your question, if you really want to use social media, not only for branding, but actually for sales independently of what your business is in, I strongly advise to be super dominant everywhere.

Robin Kiera (19:20):

I remember when I called my clients back in the day as insurance agents said, "Hello, this is Robin Kiera, I'm calling you from your insurance agency, Wolfgang Legal, let's talk about your policies." They were like, "Oh, my God, please come, let's have a coffee. The cake is ready." Never happened.

Robin Kiera (19:37):

They were like, "Oh my God, do I get a root canal made or do I actually let this guy in, he's going to sell me something." Yes, that was my intention, but what I say, what that is years later, when I was sold, dominate on LinkedIn in my niche, then our clients came and stood in line. And I think that every industry can do, you need to be dominantly out there.

Robin Kiera (19:57):

In order to do that, you need A to be everywhere also to test where it doesn't make sense or not, for example, Threads. I would say it doesn't make sense at this point if you're on B2C, for example. And you need to test a lot out in order to be early for example, TikTok, test it out, or clubhouse, test it out, clubhouse test it out, didn't work, but you know better.

Robin Kiera (20:17):

And you need to be everywhere. But I see one counter to Gary V's hypothesis. It's not only about quantity anymore, it's also about quality. So, it's not only about posting something, but it needs to be really good. And I think that has become more and more fact over the last 6, 12 months.

Jim Marous (20:38):

So, when you're talking really good in financial services, be it in insurance, banking, any financial field, are we talking about making it so that it's informational, that it helps people that a little bit different than just entertainment, but that we're trying to get the word out as to how to better manage your money, how to have more financial wellness, things of this nature? Is that part of the quality equation?

Robin Kiera (21:03):

Totally. But it's not that we are selfless, but if you look at what is taught on schools, nothing has to do with financial literacy. If you look at the best sellers at Barnes & Nobles or whatever your favorite bookstore is, they're full of self-help books, especially in the finance space.

Robin Kiera (21:20):

How to get rich. How to be healthy, how to have a happy relationship. All these topics are actually topics that are super important or relevant for insurers and banks. People may not like us; we have been around for some hundred years, and they really think that we know something about money.

Robin Kiera (21:41):

For example, how to manage it, how to keep it, how to multiply it. That's what we can, and I think to actually go into the direction of financial education is super smart. Because of course you can say what they need to do, and then we also have the products that actually can buy from us in order to achieve their goals.

Robin Kiera (21:57):

I think that's super smart. But if I see one more video out there where logos flying in the first five seconds, I think I'm going to jump out of a window because it sits — you have done this like since five years ago, but within the first seconds, it seems to be really good. In the first second, the best quote, the controversy, there's something.

Robin Kiera (22:15):

Of course, you can be a little bit entertaining, that's okay. But I think insurers and banks, you don't only have a responsibility for financial literacy and education, but we know so much, we have endless topics. We can do thousands pieces of content each day if we wanted to and helping people and be on the radar.

Robin Kiera (22:32):

And when they have the moment of need, and I think I really should get that insurance, I really should get that financial planning and retirement going. In the moment of need, they think of us and then they come to us and that's the cheapest client acquisition ever.

Jim Marous (22:46):

So, Robin, in the financial services field, how are organizations now doubling down on personalization in the social media content field? I mean, how do you personalize what is in effect a broad-brush content but in social media?

Robin Kiera (23:03):

What we see, I don't see it in social media so much, but I see it in direct marketing and direct mailing. So, physical mailing and emails behind the scenes, we see it that they're really targeting certain demographic groups that they're really trying, they're writing, "Hey Jim, great, it's to see you. How is the weather in Cleveland?" Because they know somehow you are there and it's all individualized.

Robin Kiera (23:30):

We see it also in video. So, there are actually individualized videos where your name appears for example, maybe your logo for company. We see this in video, we see this in pictures, but it's a very small group of people actually doing this or a small group of companies. But their open rates are 10 times better, and their acquisition cost is way lower than for the rest. So, I think this is already happening right now.

Robin Kiera (23:54):

And of course, we also have a product there, but I don't want to go there since we're not operating in America. But I think that's something really, really happening all across in Europe. I see this not only with us, but also with a lot of other service providers doing that. And it really works. And some banks also do it themselves and some insurers. I've not seen this so much yet in social media.

Jim Marous (24:16):

So, how do you balance then when the end game is trying to make sales, how do you balance the social media and digital sales with needing to be human relationships as well? How do you build that mix between digital and human? Or do you need to?

Robin Kiera (24:36):

I think Jim it depends on the target group. If you are aiming for young urban people with very standardized financial needs, then I think you can be a neobank that has a super great app, super great onboarding system, I think that's totally fine.

Robin Kiera (24:52):

But if you're aiming for people with more complex financial needs or people that really value mutual banks or a physical person around the corner, which there are target groups still around, and I think they will be there around for a long time, that really value this.

Robin Kiera (25:10):

And so, to answer your question, it really depends on the target group. I, to be quite honest, 10 years ago thought there would be no agent and no retail bank left until now. But I learned actually that there are more complex topics in insurance, but also in banking.

Robin Kiera (25:25):

To be quite honest, I am customer of a very small mutual bank, but I have a guy there who lends a lot of money for our real estate business. But he can do also complex things and magic and that no online bank can do, we tried. And so, I think it really depends on the target group, complex, non-complex, digital, non-digital.

Robin Kiera (25:45):

But what you need to do is don't stick to a setup because you believe in it. Always look at the numbers. When you see, for example, as a retail bank, “Oh, in certain city areas and nobody's going to our stores anymore,” then really make hard decisions. It's really to deliver what the clients want. And if the clients change the attitude, you need to change.

Robin Kiera (26:05):

One more thing, somebody asked me recently, “What do you think, who will win neobanks or traditional banks?" And I said, really depends. Neobanks have a problem, nobody trusts them. If you see the average amount of money people have in neobanks, it's a few hundred, few thousand bucks. It's ridiculous. On the other hand, if you look at the digital services, the apps, traditional banks offer, it’s a disaster.

Robin Kiera (26:25):

The big question is, who is quicker? Are the digital banks, the neobanks quicker to actually expand the business model and trust then they win? Or are the traditional banks able to actually to wait better apps and applications and marketing and then they will win. It's a race, it's a race currently, and I don't know who's going to win to …

Jim Marous (26:48):

So, let's take a short break here and recognize the sponsor of this podcast.

Jim Marous (26:54):

Welcome back to Banking Transformed. So, I'm joined today by Dr. Robin Kiera, financial services marketing expert and author of the new book, Attention Hacking: The Power of Social Media Selling in Insurance and Finance.

Jim Marous (27:07):

We've been exploring the challenges, opportunities, and strategies that financial marketing experts must understand as they move from traditional to social channels for financial marketing and sales. So, Robin, before the break, we were discussing many of the opportunities that financial firms have if marketers really fully embrace what's available in the social media world. What common pitfalls should companies avoid when trying to sell financial services on social media?

Robin Kiera (27:39):

The biggest pitfall is that you do not know your target group. So, you should avoid doing something funny when your target group is not one to laugh about a certain thing or with being super serious when they actually want to be entertained. So, know your target group really, really well and deliver what they want.

Robin Kiera (27:57):

And the other big pitfall is don't give this young cool channel to a young cool person. Give it to a super professional internally or externally that really knows what he or she is doing. That's also a big pitfall I see all the time.

Jim Marous (28:11):

Wow, Robin, that is so funny because it brings back a memory. And it's true in any marketing, but it's really true in any engagement you have with a person or an organization. I remember going to an event in Switzerland, this is probably six years ago, and it was an investment group in fact.

Jim Marous (28:29):

And I was going with my presentation I was doing at that time. I thought, "God, this is really good. This is going to get these guys moving, guys and women moving. It's really good." I get in the room and I look in the room, it's just filling up.

Jim Marous (28:43):

And not only do I see that every single person is wearing a suit, men, and women, but they look as happy to be watching me as watching paint dry. It was terrible. I got on stage knowing this is going to need a complete transformation the way I'm presenting because they're not buying anything I'm saying. They all are sitting there going, "We know it better than you." It was about 90% men, which is way different than what I'm usually presenting to.

Jim Marous (29:13):

And so, it was a great example to me, make sure you have your audience completely defined before you try to engage or it's going to fall flat in your face. So, the pitfalls of knowing your audience sounds really rudimentary but if you're selling a certain kind of product and you're doing it in a completely wrong way, it will never be successful no matter how good the product is.

Jim Marous (29:37):

Robin, in your book you mentioned outdated strategies. Can you give me an example or a couple examples of a strategy and what may replace it today, either from traditional to social or just within the social strategies?

Robin Kiera (29:52):

I have two examples. Number one, if you are a decision maker or a bank or insurer and you don't have a strategy for example, for LinkedIn, you're just randomly posting something. What's really interesting is if you don't have a strategy, who is your target? Who's your target group? What do you actually want to achieve with it?

Robin Kiera (30:09):

Especially, who do you not want to reach, then it's just random posting that doesn't help you at all. I see this with a lot of decision makers finally. They like to do it, but they do it in not professional way.

Robin Kiera (30:22):

And the second one is every single TV ad except maybe for Super Bowl, banks and insurers are bad. I mean, think about it. You need to pay gatekeepers like the TV channels, money that they show stuff nobody in the world ever would watch on their free time to watch.

Robin Kiera (30:42):

And I think that's a very ... and we spend billions as insurance and finance industry. We spend billions on our marketing and still we don't achieve anything that people watch voluntarily. Because I don't know, Jim, how about you? If you ever went home and said, "Honey, let's watch some ads from banks and insurers."

Jim Marous (30:59):

Yeah, yeah, exactly. It's interesting you talk about the, "Hey, let's watch some ads." On my streaming service, I realize that now at certain points in a show, I'm given an option of which commercial I want to watch. So, they give me three different commercials that I can choose from.

Jim Marous (31:16):

I'm going, I'm not too sure if that's targeting, but I can tell you right now they're just capturing of information based on what I like to see. So, that's a very interesting dynamic when you're looking at the way media overall is changing.

Jim Marous (31:28):

So, one major thing you mentioned about Super Bowl, that it's very much a waste of money for almost everybody. How do organizations or how should organizations measure success? Because I'll be honest with you, from my perspective and what I do socially, I have a heck of a time determining if what I'm measuring is really the way I should measure. If it's the best way to measure, if there's a better way to measure. So, how do you suggest organizations measure their success in the social channels?

Robin Kiera (32:01):

Well, it really depends on your goal, but let's go to the TV advertisement space. So, if you just create something that gets an award and awards are just giving agency to agency and everybody celebrating them and herselves and have nothing to do with the reality. I mean, we just won an award. So, I won't even brag too much about it or say too many bad things about it, but I think actually it's ridiculous.

Robin Kiera (32:25):

If you produce things that really the clients want to see, maybe entertainment or a little bit of education, then what happens then we see this about the ads we produce is the people watch it longer. They don't skip after 20 seconds or 17, 15 seconds or 6 seconds. They watch it a little longer.

Robin Kiera (32:41):

And so, if you do really good creatives, people voluntarily watch it. And I think that's one of the KPIs. What is the watch time, average watch time that's even if it's paid, if it's organic, you see the reach.

Robin Kiera (32:56):

But on the other hand, we have sometimes B2B campaigns where the reach is not good, but the relevant people are about seeing it. We have actually one project where they say, “I actually want to reach only 50 people. That's what I want. Certain amount of 50 people.” So, it's super hard.

Robin Kiera (33:10):

On the other hand, if you have a small group and then have sales meetings and the people say, "Oh, I saw your podcast was this and that and a great point," then you know the people are watching. But it is the more niche you go, the less the metrics actually count because 1, 2, 3, 10 decision makers sometimes make all the difference. Especially when it's like software for banks and insurers that gets, I don't know, changed every decade. Then it makes all the difference if one or two people see it and not 1 or 2 million.

Jim Marous (33:41):

So, Robin, writing a book is a labor of love and you wrote a really good marketing book about attention hacking. But almost everybody I interview, ever interview that we talk about their book, there's certain elements of surprise that happened in the writing where something you thought you'd find out was different than what you really found out or something you were almost sure was true turned out to be false. What was one or two of the surprises you found when writing a book about attention hacking?

Robin Kiera (34:15):

Well, there's a German version from it, three or four-years-old, and the English version super up to date came up this year. So, the biggest difference when I translated it, I actually had somebody translating it, but you still really need to read the book again because I didn't want that you get also a German accent while reading it, I think this podcast is already enough.

Robin Kiera (34:35):

And so, but my biggest intellectual thing was where I said I need to actually rewrite it was when I started. And I think the book, my first book, the German book was like, “Guys, you really can just start. You can do it post something, it's amazing. You would reach a lot.” And back in the days, it also was true 2018, '19, '20, especially with COVID, there was a lot of a free reach out there for — but now there's not only one real estate guy on TikTok, but I know 200.

Robin Kiera (35:05):

So, the biggest difference and the aha moment for me was it's not about just starting and doing something. It needs to be good. It needs to be good and either you need to be a natural talent really great, or you have to have a super great internal team or external, but it needs to be really, really good.

Robin Kiera (35:22):

And you need to have specialists involved. It's a little bit unfair because I would love to just do like the, "Hey Chucker, let's do it and just start." But you can only get so far with this nowadays. It's a little bit unfair but that's my main aha moment. I was like, “I thought I just translate that thing,” but then I reread it. I was like, "No, this really has changed."

Jim Marous (35:43):

Boy, and it gets back to using specialists to understand not only financial services but understand social media. That to be good, you need to know who you're reaching, you have to know the product line, how it fits in with everybody else competitively, you need that head start.

Jim Marous (36:00):

But to your other point you made very early in the podcast, don't think you can do it yourself and don't necessarily think your traditional agency can do it. Because there are nuances with social media that are very different than with traditional media. So, finally Robin, what's your number one recommendation for bank marketing in financial services?

Robin Kiera (36:24):

Start your short video team now. Go to TikTok, go to Instagram shorts, go to YouTube shorts, start your short video team now. Not yesterday, not tomorrow but now.

Jim Marous (36:38):

With that in mind and with the fact that most people would be served well by reading your book, how do people find you and see what you've done in your attention hacking for yourself and for your company.

Robin Kiera (36:53):

Go to LinkedIn or go to Robin Kiera there or go to TikTok, look for Robin Kiera or CEO of Diggi. That's nickname people gave me like a CEO of Bro gave me, that's in German. So, you don't see all the silly things we do there. But yeah, we eat what we cook, we eat our own dog food.

Robin Kiera (37:14):

Another quote of Gary V., we eat our own dog food, have a look in there. And we are also happy to share some use cases we have if you want to see how can that be applied for a C-suite which cannot dance naked like I do all the time on TikTok, kidding.

Jim Marous (37:30):

Robin, you're a crazy fool. Sometimes I watch you on TikTok and everything else. I'm going like that is insanely creative. You have an amazing personality that is very outgoing and fun. You obviously attack everything with a very high level of passion. I really appreciate you being on the show today and want to have you back soon again.

Robin Kiera (37:50):

Thank you very much for having the opportunity.

Jim Marous (37:54):

Thanks for listening to Banking Transformed, the top podcast in retail banking and the winner of three international awards for podcast excellence. We appreciate the support we have received to make this endeavor a success. If you enjoy what we're doing, please take some time to show some love in the form of a review.

Jim Marous (38:11):

Finally, be sure to catch my recent articles in The Financial Brand and the research we're doing for the Digital Banking Report. This has been a production of Evergreen Podcasts. A special thank you to our senior producer, Leah Haslage, audio engineer Chris Fafalios and video producer Will Pritts.

Jim Marous (38:27):

If you've not already done so, remember to subscribe to Banking Transformed on both your favorite podcast app and on YouTube for more thought-provoking discussions on the intersection between finance, technology, and leadership.