Andrew Yang: Reforming America's Political System

Ken Harbaugh:

If you're a fan of Burn the Boats, hit the follow button to stay up to date with all our newest releases. Thanks, and enjoy the show.

Andrew Yang:

This should not be something that we're all clinging by our fingernails to the edge of the cliff about. Trump is a terrible candidate. If you ran a generic Democrat, you would beat Trump by eight points.

Instead, they decided to run the 81-year-old incumbent with a 37% approval rating. Who decided that? Like you didn't, I didn't, like rank-and-file Democrats didn't even decide it. It was just like a handful of insiders.

Ken Harbaugh:

I'm Ken Harbaugh, and this is Burn the Boats.

My guest today is Andrew Yang, who ran for president as a Democrat in 2020 and gained national attention for his massively successful grassroots campaign.

He has since left the Democratic Party, founded the Forward Party, and has been an outspoken advocate for reforming America's political system.

Andrew, welcome to the show.

Andrew Yang:

Thanks for having me, Ken. It's a pleasure.

Ken Harbaugh:

Let's start with an easy question. How do we fix our politics?

Andrew Yang:

Now, I gave a Ted talk on this subject. I don't know if you've seen it. I feel like you probably have.

Ken Harbaugh:

I have.

Andrew Yang:

Yeah. So, the way we fix our politics is by making it so that if you do the right thing, you keep your job, don't lose your job. Right now, if our legislators do the right thing, they probably lose their job.

And so, the way to correct their incentives is to change the primary system from its current party primary set up to anyone can vote for anyone.

And if that sounds fanciful or fantastic, there are three states that have already voted this in, Maine, Alaska and Nevada. Though Nevada has to vote for it again, because of a quirk in the state constitution.

And in these environments, you see a real improvement because the greatest fiction in American life, Ken, is that our leaders have to make 51% of us happy to stay in power. It's just not true.

They have to make the 10 to 12% who vote in their party's primary tolerate them or accept them, and then they cruise. Because about 94% of the congressional districts in this country are drawn to be non-competitive and either quite blue or quite red.

Ken, I feel like you are in Ohio in the Midwest. Are you in a purple zone, or red zone, blue zone?

Ken Harbaugh:

I am in one of the dark blue dots, but I ran in a heavily gerrymandered Trump plus 30 districts. So, I absolutely get what you're talking about. And gerrymandering factors into this as well.

Andrew Yang:

Oh, yeah. I mean, if there's one thing the parties can agree on — they're actually several things they can agree on, but the main thing is to avoid competition if at all possible. That's how you wind up with only 6% of districts that are contested or competitive.

Then as soon as they have the opportunity, they redraw the lines to make most of our votes irrelevant. As you discovered in your Trump plus 30 district.

Ken Harbaugh:

Indeed. Do you need the buy-in of at least one of the major parties to push some of these reforms through? I mean, how otherwise do you pull it off if they're in effect voting against their political interests?

Andrew Yang:

Ken, this is something that I heard an awful lot is like, “Hey, why don't you try and reform it from within the parties?” And I very quickly concluded that was going to be a bust. And anyone listening to this would get that.

It's like, “Hmm, let's see if we can get these guys to vote in incentives that make them more accountable and maybe reduce their job security.” And we know our politicians well enough to know that they're unlikely to do it.

Now, are there some benign folks on the inside who figured this out, who are trying to make the changes? Yes, there are. Like I'm not someone who wants to paint everyone with a negative brush.

But what happens within the two parties now, is they say, “Well, we have no choice because look at the other side. We must gerrymander because they're gerrymandering,” or whatnot.

And so, if you really want to make the change, in my opinion, it starts from outside the parties. But there are good folks in both parties that are for these reforms.

Dan Rayfield in Oregon was the state legislator, and now, they're deciding on rank choice voting statewide in Oregon as a result of his efforts.

And then there are moderate Republicans in Utah to figure it out that these structures save money because you don't have costly runoffs, you don't have a lot of other things that are wasteful.

So, there are good people in the parties that want to make these changes, but my thesis was that you need to create a popular movement from outside the two parties.

And coincidentally, 50% or so of Americans say, we're independents. Two thirds are fed up with the two party system. So, I thought, “Hmm, like I think there's a fit here. Maybe what we do is we start the Forward Party and galvanize folks who are fed up.”

I tell a joke all the time, Ken, that I'm the co-chair of the third biggest party in the country by resources. It's just there's a very, very steep drop off between number two and number three.

Ken Harbaugh:

For those who aren't political geeks like you and me, explain ranked choice voting and where it's had a dramatic impact. It's not just some fanciful idea that academics dreamed up. It's worked in states on actual ballots.

Andrew Yang:

Yeah. So, it was adopted statewide in Alaska in 2020, and then you saw immediate impact where Lisa Murkowski voted to impeach Donald Trump which ordinarily gets you excommunicated from the party very, very quickly.

But because there was no Republican primary, she managed to come back to the Senate against a Trumper, and Trump came to Alaska to get revenge for the impeachment vote.

And Lisa Murkowski was the only Republican senator who voted to impeach Trump who was on the ballot again in ‘22. There were 10 Republican House members who resembled that, and of them, 8 of them did not make it back to the primary.

So, ordinarily you vote to impeach Trump, it's curtains. But because Alaska shifted to a nonpartisan, anyone can vote for anyone, rank choice voting.

So, what rank choice voting is a system where you can rank your top, let's say three candidates, one, two, three.

And if your first candidate does not get a majority of 50.1% of votes, then they take the worst performing candidate, look at those voters and say, “Okay, you didn't get your top choice, so who is your second choice?” And they reallocate votes from the weakest candidate until eventually someone gets a majority.

So, in Ohio, as an example, you might have a J. D. Vance emerging with something like 32% of the Republican primary. And it's possible that two thirds of people aren't fans.

With ranked choice voting, you have a winner that has a majority of people that are at least pretty positive on that person, which is something that breaks down in a reality voting system if you have more than two candidates.

Ken Harbaugh:

And the upshot is this is a system that favors moderates, people who can appeal to both sides, and it handicaps those who only appeal to the extremists, which is the opposite of our system today.

Andrew Yang:

Yeah. Right now, if I can get my base riled up, then I might win a majority of the 10% of the folks who go in the primary, and then I am your representative or like I'm your winner.

In a rank choice voting system, I genuinely have to get 51% of you on board. And so, that tends to moderate me. It also makes it so if you have some issue or group and you come to the table, I kind of should deal with you because it's like, “Oh crap, like maybe your people will rank me second and that might actually decide this thing.”

So, it improves the incentives during the campaign. It improves the incentives when you're in office.

What it does, it weakens the party machinery. And that's why both parties tend to not like it, because if you made it so they actually had to answer to the public, then it's harder to game out your reelection win. Then you might actually have to deliver, which is something our political class doesn't like to be held accountable for.

Ken Harbaugh:

You're a third-party guy and you gravitated in that direction over time since your presidential run as a Democrat because of your frustration with the status quo. But you've also, been incredibly outspoken against Donald Trump.

How do you now evaluate the importance of the third-party effort, building a momentum there with stopping a would-be autocrat who is a grave threat to democracy itself, as you've alluded to?

Andrew Yang:

I don't think Trump should be president. I think he'd make a disastrous president much worse the second time than the first. And so, then if you look at the landscape and say, okay, how do we keep Trump from winning?

And of the other candidates, you look at them … and I wish we had better candidates. I backed Dean Phillips to the Democratic primary because I thought that we could upgrade from this battle of the octogenarians.

I'm deeply sympathetic to folks who want to break away from the two parties. Obviously, I'm the co-chair of a third party.

And I also, get pissed off when people's like, “Oh, you got to vote this, you got to vote that.” It's like the truth is that in 44 of the 50 states, our votes don't matter in this context anyway, unless something really bananas happens. But I'm in New York right now, my vote's not going to matter.

Even in Ohio, what used to be the quintessential bellwether, your vote probably doesn't matter. I mean, the only people whose votes are going to matter are Michigan, Pennsylvania, Wisconsin, Arizona, and Nevada, Georgia. And then some people might argue North Carolina, which I don't see. So, it's really at six states.

I mean, again, at some point we have to look up and say, “Why is this system so unrepresentative, so undemocratic, so bizarre?”

And then when folks try and bully you about voting for this or that, it's like, “Look, man, I mean, the truth is my vote doesn't matter. It's like neither does yours. Like we're all being set up.”

And I think Trump has an unacceptably high chance of winning in a large part because the Democrats have served it up to amount of silver platter. And that pisses me off too.

Ken Harbaugh:

I guess I'm trying to pin you down on your ambitions for the third-party movement and the urgency of the moment.

And you're right, in a lot of states votes for president, probably putting in an air quotes, “don't matter”. Although I would make an argument for patriotic duty. But they do matter even in Ohio, in the case of our Senate race, I'm sure there are races in New York where your vote still matters.

Andrew Yang:

Very few here, man. Very few here.

Ken Harbaugh:

The symbolic value of an outpouring of voter sentiment against Trumpism and MAGA extremism, I don't think that can be overstated, even if it's not reflected in the electoral map or the electoral college. I think the way we begin to reject Trumpism is by saying we reject it.

Andrew Yang:

I agree with you there, Ken. I think if a lot of us demonstrate that we're no fans of MAGA-ism and Trump, that is a win.

I wrote a sample speech for Joe Biden, maybe at this point is like a year and a half ago, maybe even more. Well, so, one thing that me off all the time is the Democrats like, “Democracy is on the line.”

And then, “Oh, but please don't notice that we canceled primaries in Florida and North Carolina, canceled essentially our presidential primary, had no presidential debates, are willing to boost election deniers when we think they'll be more beatable in the general to the tune of seven figures. Like we'll do all sorts of stuff, gerrymandering our hearts out because quote unquote “the other side” does it.”

It's like we are struggling through really like a creaking, cracking, faux democracy, and then the Democrats are running around being like, “No, like vote for us because you must, because it's democracy.”

I mean, if you think about it, that rationale actually can't be right, because like if you have no choice but to vote for us to defend democracy, then it's not democracy.

And we should have had a choice in terms of the presidential nominee. I mean, Joe Biden, I was a campaign surrogate for him four years ago. I don't think he's the right candidate for the cycle. I think the American people deserved a say.

Or I said, “Look, if Joe insists on running for reelection, alright, don't like it. But it would be acceptable to me if the Democrats had had a primary for who his running mate should be.” A vice presidential primary.

And then we could all say, “Okay, Joe's the top of the ticket. And we don't think he's going to finish his term necessarily.” I mean, like I wish him a long healthy life and everything. But so like who's his successor going to be? It's like maybe we should have a say in that.

Like the Democrats had all sorts of opportunities to live up to their name Democrats, and they essentially said, “No, no, no, let, let's not do it. Joe, Joe, Joe all the way. But vote for us because of democracy.”

So, I get the fact that everyone's pissed off. I mean, I'm obviously like irritated, like beyond irked because like they're making the other side's case way too strong.

Like they could have strengthened their own case in multiple ways and then been genuine and said, “No, really, we're the good guys. We give you a say, we are here to champion democracy. Even if sometimes it might not serve our current leaders' interests.”

Like that would've been a very, very powerful case. If they had made that case, I think they win this thing hands down.

Ken Harbaugh:

I'm with you on one or two of those, especially supporting election deniers because they're easier to beat. I just think that is philosophically wrong on every level.

But I sure hope you're not suggesting that the Democratic Party is as grave of a threat to democracy as the party that says it will now, pardon insurrectionist, that has a leader who said he would terminate the constitution, who said he'd be dictator for a day, when we all know there is no such thing as a one day dictator.

Andrew Yang:

Oh, no, don't worry, Ken. So, you're right that I would not mean to treat them in equivalence. Like I think this Republican Party has lost its way.

I think Trump is terrible and Trump would make a terrible president. And under no circumstances would I vote for Trump and do anything that would help him get reelected. So, I agree with you there. I mean, he's unique.

My frustration with the Democrats is like, “Hey, if you have this Trump type threat on the horizon, let's beat him.” And then they decided to, it's like, “Hey, let's beat him in …”

Like best case scenario, the Democrats eat this thing out, and worst-case scenario they lose. And this should not be something that we're all like clinging by our fingernails to the edge of the cliff about.

Trump is a terrible candidate. If you ran a generic Democrat … I mean, one of the jokes I had was just name some dude like General Eric Democrat, like Gen Eric Democrat and just run him or her. And as long as they're under the age of let's call it 70, you'd beat Trump by 8 points. This is not that hard.

Instead, they decided to run the 81-year-old incumbent with a 37% approval rating, and we're like, “Oh.” They were all like …

And when I say they too, this is the frustration, Ken, is that like who decided that? Like you didn't, I didn't, like rank-and-file Democrats didn't even decide it. It was just like a handful of insiders.

Ken Harbaugh:

Yeah. Well, I'm in the camp firmly that does believe democracy is on the line because of everything Donald Trump has said he would do. And because of what the people closest to him have said he should do. Project 2025 and the other things.

And I think a lot of us are in the position now, where debating over who should have been the nominee is a waste of breath and counterproductive. I don't think we're going to get a convention nominee. You're not holding out hope for that, are you?

Andrew Yang:

I am truly. Only when that that ship has entirely sailed. Because I'm with you, I'm a positive solutions-oriented type. So, it's like, “Okay, what's the situation? What are we going to make of it?”

But until Joe Biden's name is printed on every ballot around the country, I hold out hope that the Democrats will swap him out. And I know that's very, very unlikely. It's mainly a fantasy. I know some of the people involved and there is no plan to swap Joe Biden out.

But I still hold out hope because the convention's not officially until August. So, they're going to not in nominate him virtually to get him out in Ohio's ballot, I believe. So, it'll probably happen before August.

But if your guy is on track to lose to Trump and you're three months out, like can you imagine the Democratic Party being like, “Hey, guys …”

Or I mean, this is very realistic, Joe Biden just has a health problem. And then if he has a health problem, like they have to look around and do something. I hold out hope because as you can …

Like look, will I do my part to try and help make sure Trump is not a president? Yes, I will. Will I go to Pennsylvania and around other swing states? Yes, I will.

And maybe my sincerity about like the situation, might even help people. It's like I get that you feel that down. But at the same time, I do believe that if the Democrats had a nominee that did not have major drawbacks with the majority of Americans, they’d beat Trump easily.

Ken Harbaugh:

And you don't think there are opportunities to turn this around. And let me give you a hypothetical. Based on an actual experience, there's this narrative about Joe Biden that he is not up to the job. There's a real chance that that is going to blow up in the Republican's face.

And you saw a glimpse of that immediately after the State of the Union in which he so humiliated the Republican hecklers that they had to invent yet another conspiracy theory that he was on drugs.

I'm trying to picture the upcoming debate in which Americans have been told that Joe Biden is a certain version of their drooling grandpa, and he crushes Donald Trump because the setting is favorable to him. And the lie is put to this whole Republicans conspiracy theory.

Andrew Yang:

And I think that people after they see Trump for more than an hour straight, will be like, “Wow. He has some issues as well.”

Ken Harbaugh:

With you.

Andrew Yang:

Yeah. It's though even with an exceptional State of the Union performance, Joe's number has settled down to where they were maybe two weeks later. And so, the issue really is what can change the dynamic.

I agree a good debate performance on June 27th would be a win for the president. It's one reason why they scheduled it then because it's highly unusual, by the way, to have debates that early. And the format does favor Joe Biden.

So, I mean, it's an opportunity. It's interesting, that there needs to be something that does change the dynamic. Interestingly, I do think the more people pay attention to Trump, the better it'll look for Joe, because Trump is really slipping. I mean, both these guys have seen better days.

Ken Harbaugh:

Yeah. I think the Biden campaign is resting a lot on that, and I think they're right to, because at the end of the day, this is a vote. This is an election about Trump.

And frankly, it should be because of everything he said, because of everything he wants to do in a second Trump term. Do you really want a retributive president to have the nuclear button come 2025?

Andrew Yang:

I do not. I don't want someone-

Ken Harbaugh:

Hypothetical.

Andrew Yang:

Yeah, no, I don't want someone who's going to be trying to go on a revenge tour testing the limits of what the government can do. Never has to run for reelection again, and so will just try and leave a trail of destruction. I mean, it's very dark. These are dark times, Ken.

I mean, just about every day I am saddened that we're having this kind of challenge on the horizon. And obviously, a challenge that I see is very formidable, very high stakes, and unfortunately quite winnable for Trump, who I think, again, would be catastrophic.

Ken Harbaugh:

If the Biden campaign came asking, what would your affirmative case be for the Biden reelect?

Andrew Yang:

Well, so, here's one thing that they need to do a better job of, Ken, and they need to paint a vision of Biden's second term. Even now, they haven't really tried to do so. And so, I think if they can say, “Look, you guys are for this, we're for this too.”

I mean, most Americans actually like a lot of where Democrats are in a lot of these policies. So, I think if they could say, “Look, we got this stuff done.” And they got a lot done legislatively for sure.

And then they can say, “Here's what we're going to get done over this next period, and here's the other guy's vision.” And it is a very dark vision.

Then I think a lot of Americans will say, “Look, I'm not that pumped about some aspects of this administration, but I like what they're going to try and do.” That would be the case.

Ken Harbaugh:

You just said they got a lot done legislatively. Why haven't they gotten the credit for that? I mean, the CHIPS Act, huge here in Ohio, the Infrastructure Act, on and on.

They have been able to pass bipartisan legislation in an environment where everybody assumes nothing could possibly get done. How do we sell that message?

Andrew Yang:

This is a massive time lag behind those laws. And then the deployment of resources in the state. I read a story, (you probably read it too, because you're up on this stuff) where there's 1.6 trillion authorized around moving the economy in a more sustainable direction and infrastructure.

And they haven't been able to deploy the majority of those resources because when the government says, “Hey, we're going to spend 1.6 trillion.” What it really means is they're going to push resources often to states and cities, and the states need to have projects, and then eventually the money needs to be deployed. So, a lot of that stuff hasn't actually been spent meaningfully.

And then when they tell the story that they're just using headlines and abstractions, and most people don't feel like it affects them. Now, if you're in Ohio and they're actually opening a manufacturing facility in your town, then it's like, “Okay, I see it.” And that that's happening I know in some parts of the country.

But for most Americans, they're not seeing those kind of direct benefits. So, it's just like a number and a headline. And then it becomes tough for them to feel like things are getting done that improve their day-to-day.

Ken Harbaugh:

Well, even when those factories do get opened, it feels like the messaging is often inverted. We were just talking to Andy Kim about how many of his Republican colleagues show up at these ribbon cuttings for projects they voted against.

That drives me crazy that someone like Lauren Boebert is taking credit for investment in her district that she wanted no part of.

Andrew Yang:

Yeah, there's a lot of hypocrisy on that side. It's true. I mean, I'm someone that thinks the government has to play a role in moving us in a direction that we want to go in.

And so, here's my overly simplistic vision of things, Ken, though there's some merit to it. So, historically, you think the Democratic Party is the mommy party, the Republican Party is the daddy party.

Now, I think the Democratic Party is the last of the institutionalists saying it's going to work. We're going to do this, we're going to do that. And the Republicans have become the don't believe anything, they're full of shit, burn it down anti-institutional party.

Now, I don't like that anti-institutional thing. Unfortunately, we're in an era where Americans faith in institutions is eroding in every direction. I mean, you name it, we say we don't believe in that, don't believe in that.

And so, the Democrats have a case that they have to make all the time. It's like, “No, it's working. We passed this, we're building this, we're doing this.”

And then there are more and more Americans who feel like they're slipping through the cracks. Their kids aren't going to have a better future than they did.

I was with Tim Ryan of Ohio a couple weeks ago, and he put it in that way where he said, “Look, if I lost my job, or my town's been going downhill for years, and then you come to me and say, ‘Hey, GDP's up of the last two quarters,’ it doesn't make me want to vote for you.”

It's a rough time. I mean, like it's a multi-decade arc. And the question is, how do you actually restore people's faith in institutions?

Now, the approach I've taken and my colleagues like Christine Todd Whitman, who's the governor of New Jersey, and Kerry Healey, who's the lieutenant governor of Massachusetts under Mitt Romney, is look, we need a movement of Americans who are not beholden to either major party.

Who want to get things done for people, will back positive people and either party, will back positive independence, will back anyone who wants to perform the system so it's working better.

Because we think that these institutions are super important, that they're not functioning the way they're meant to, that there is a lot of stuff that's now, tilted against the American people. And we'd like to change that.

We'd like to get money out of politics. We'd like term limits. We'd like people who come in and try and do the right thing and leave. And a lot of Americans want the same things. And so, that's the Forward Party movement.

And what I see that as, so if you have the Democrats of the last institutionalists apologizing for things that are faltering and crumbling, and the Republicans are like, “Let's burn it all down.”

Forward is the let's improve the institutions to a point where they live up to their promise. Like we're not the burn it down crew where the modernize improve the incentives, make it so that we have a fighting chance crew.

And there are people who are listening to that thinking like, “Oh, I thought that was one party or the other.” But unfortunately, now in our view, a lot of the political class now, even the well-intended ones are kind of handcuffed.

There were a lot of Republicans who are not Trump fans. Of the 10 who voted to impeach Trump, there were another dozen or more who were supposed to vote to impeach Trump, but then they stood down because they're getting death threats on their phones. And then when they saw their colleagues …

And now, they saw 80% of the people who voted to impeach get wiped out. And that was Anthony Gonzalez, Peter Meijer, Liz Cheney, Adam Kinzinger, a lot of like the best and most principle numbers of the party.

And so, do you think that's had like a major chilling effect on the party? Of course. And now, you can see everyone kowtowing to Trump again, including some folks who were critics of his not that long ago.

So, we have a system that will make bad people out of good people. And that's the most dangerous thing of all. We need a system that will reward people for doing the right thing.

Ken Harbaugh:

My reaction to that is how does the Forward Party help that? If you talk to those Republicans who voted to impeach, who found their courage, how does the Forward Party help them? I think most of them would tell you, it doesn't.

If you talk to the Republicans, and I have, some of them who would've voted except they thought their families were going to be targeted. How does the Forward Party help them?

Some of them will say privately that the only thing that will reform the Republican Party is a massive electoral defeat.

Andrew Yang:

Ken, this Republican Party is lost. There is no reforming this Republican Party.

And the way to liberate those legislators is exactly what we opened with, which is if they all have the same situation as Lisa Murkowski in Alaska where there is no Republican Party primary and anyone can vote for anyone, then they can do something that pisses off the base like voting to impeach Trump, and they can still win their election.

If you had that situation for the hundreds of Republicans who are in Congress, a lot of them would be like, “You know what, I'm totally fine with this impeachment vote.” Because they wouldn't get drummed out of the party.

I mean, you know what the biggest threat in Washington life today is? We're going to primary you. Like that is the biggest threat.

And so, if all of a sudden, it's like, “Be my guest, you can join the party. There are going to be five or six of us in what amounts to like a general election. And my people know me, and your new person is going to lose to me.” So, that is the situation you want.

In this current situation, if the party decides to primary you and that person gets backing, they have a really good chance to beat you because all they have to do is edge you out within that party's base, and they probably start out with a certain number.

So, what they did in Alaska frees up all those Republicans to do the right thing. That's why Lisa Murkowski did the right thing and still has a political career unlike Peter Meijer, Adam Kinzinger, and Liz Cheney, Anthony Gonzalez, and the rest of them. It's a structural thing, Ken.

Ken Harbaugh:

Yeah. How did that happen in Alaska? Is it just because Alaska is its own odd political entity, or is there something we can replicate down here?

Andrew Yang:

Well, it got replicated in Nevada two years later in ‘22, where 53% of Nevadan said, “You know what, I also would like to be able to vote for anyone.”

And think of this argument, Ken. Hey, guys, how would you like to be able to vote for any candidate you want in the primary? Most people will hear that and say, “Sounds great.” And then what is the counter argument? No, no, no, the parties are awesome and party primaries are ordained by God or something.

So, most people will look at it and be like, “Wait a minute, you're saying I can vote for anyone I want in the primary? Sounds phenomenal. We should have been doing that in the first place.”

And so, in Alaska, to your question, a group of Alaskans and some non-Alaskans got together and said, “You know what, let's have a ballot initiative that says anyone can vote for anyone in the primary.” And then a majority of Alaskans said, “Sounds great, let's do it.”

And then the same thing happened in Nevada two years later.

Now, the thing that we have to know, and most of your listeners are probably into this, is that stuff doesn't happen by accident. It doesn't happen for free.

So, in my TED talk, I talk about how there are, let's call it four states that will have the same ballot initiative up in November. That stuff's going to cost $60 million plus. Like it's well beyond the range of just, frankly, some good-natured people in those states being like, “Hey, let's do this thing.”

Because then you have to get signatures. Okay, maybe you can do that. Then you have to bend off lawsuits and legal challenges because the current party system, by the way, will just sue anyone who does anything to change it. So, then that's seven figures in lawyers’ fees.

And then you have to tell people what the heck this ballot initiative even means. So, that might be eight figures. I mean, the way money has overrun our system today, the only way you can even get a choice in front of people is as some positive folks decide to present it to them.

So, that's what happened in Alaska at a cost of $6 million. So, it happened in Nevada at the cost of $22 million.

Now, if people had an honest choice, they'll take it. Like 53% of Nevadan said, “I like the sound of being able to vote for whomever I want, even though both parties came out against it.”

And that's the only way this stuff's going to happen, folks. Like if you think that the parties are going to reform themselves, good luck with that. If you think that it's going to be a movement of Americans who come together and say, “Okay, I get it. We're being set up, we're being manipulated.”

One party has completely lost its mind. The other party is, in my opinion, just content to say, “We're not that party. Like we're better than them.” And the rest of us are left wondering why our kids are going to have worse lives than we did. And that's not acceptable.

I'm imagining you're a parent too, Ken, you strike me as a dad.

Ken Harbaugh:

I am. I am a proud father of three. They're all home for the summer. So, we got a full house.

Anecdotal, but most Democrats I talk to support ranked choice voting. Most Republicans I talk to, don't. Because they're looking at Alaska, they're looking at Nevada. Is there an ideological divide on this because of the incentive structure it creates?

Andrew Yang:

Oh, so, I have a few points here. Number one, for all of those Democrats who support rank choice voting, please ask your leaders to do the same.

Because if you look at electeds, they very, very seldom come out for rank choice voting because their consultants tell them not to. And I think that's going to destroy us, honestly.

Like I think if you have folks in power who are just like, “Well, look, system's good for me now that I'm in the seat.” Like so, if you were a democrat that likes rank choice voting, let's get the …

If the Democratic Party was passing rank choice voting bills all over the place, no one would be happier than me. But the truth is that even if rank-and-file them …

I mean, I was in Nevada two years ago when the Democratic Party was sending out nasty messages to everyone on their list saying, “Vote no on question three because it'll be too confusing for voters and people won't know who to vote for.”

And that was the Democratic Party of Nevada. So, if it's true that the Democratic Party will become like the rank choice voting proponents, please, please, please, let's make that happen. I'm very, very happy to back people of any party that are pro these reforms.

Now, you are correct that some conservatives have started to see rank choice voting as like a bluish measure when it's not. What it is it's a pro majority rule measure, it's a pro moderation measure in most cases. It's better policy, better incentives, more efficient et cetera.

But are there conservatives in Alaska who are trying to roll back these changes because of Sarah Palin losing and Lucy Murkowski winning? Yes, there are.

And is that something that stresses folks like me out? Yeah, very much so, because Alaska is a shining example of what can happen if we reform our structures. And now, they want to unreform it because they liked having disproportionate control based upon their percentage of the vote.

Ken Harbaugh:

You just described RCV as pro majoritarian, not pro blue. But I would suggest that today's Republican party has become increasingly majoritarian.

I can't tell you how many times someone has shouted at me or virtually over Twitter that, “We're not a democracy, we're a republic.” Which is like saying I don't drive a car, I drive a Ford. A republic is a form of democracy.

But it is indicative of this anti-democratic bent within the Republican Party today that deep down sees the demographic change, is terrified of what the future holds in which the power structure that they benefited from no longer exists.

And I wouldn't put a lot of faith any longer in the idea of a pro-democracy Republican Party.

Andrew Yang:

Don't disagree. This version of the Republican Party has become very, very insular, backward looking, tribal, not terribly principled that they pretty much are willing to throw any democratic process out the door if it stands in their way in terms of like their tribal victories, is my sense of things. And that's a massive problem.

One of the reasons that I say to folks that, look, we have to get beyond this two-party system, which I can go through at great length why it's not working, is that we're set up in a way that each party is going to win, by the way.

Like I talk to Democrats and say, “Hey, do you think Republicans are threat to the country? Terrible, not suitable to govern?” And a lot of Democrats will say, “Sure.” They're like, “Well, then you really should be pro-reform because you're going to hand the government back to them at some point.”

And like they're like, if your plan is to defeat the Republicans forever, then that's a stupid plan in a country where maybe 20% of people think we're on the right track.

So, even if you think Democrats are stellar examples of everything that's good in the world, Republicans are awful, you should be pro-reform because you're going to give the government back to the Republicans.

And then if your game plan is like, “Well, let's watch them screw things up so badly that then we'll win again in ‘28.” Which by the way, is something that I know is happening right now. There are a lot of folks in the Democratic party who are just like, “Well, like let's just wait till ‘28.”

And like that is the path to demise for the country too. It's that you're playing this game and you're like you take it, I take it, you take it, I take it while the country sinks into the mud. And by the way that country's sinking into the mud is what enables someone like Trump to come up in the first place.

When I was running for president a number of years ago, I talked about how a lot of things are at all-time highs, including anxiety, depression, college debt. Like now, you could throw housing and affordability in there.

I mean, there are all these trends that are making Americans more and more angry and pissed off. And our political system gives them very, very limited ways to do anything about it. Because as we said in the opening, 94% of the districts are uncompetitive in the general anyway. Like your vote does not matter in most of these cases.

And so, the only pressure release valve people have is the presidential. And that's how you wind up with a Trump. That we have a political system that is essentially refracting popular will.

There was a Princeton study that showed that there is no correlation between what most Americans want and what we get, and it's true. And so, that there's a lot of manipulation going on where they're like, “Hey, no, this that, no, no. This issue, that issue.”

Most of our family's way of life is getting worse. And so, you wind up with a stew that gives rise to very negative leadership and movements because we're not solving the root problems.

Ken Harbaugh:

I want to run a hypothetical by you and get your reaction to it, because here's what I think it's going to take. I am a hundred percent with you on the need for reform, but I think the entrenchment of the two-party system is just too deep.

And so, it's going to take Democrats, (because as you've said, the Republicans are too far gone) some party leaders, but mostly rank-and-file Democrats, deciding against their party's short term political interests for the good of the country.

And I can point to a few examples of that. I mean, the fact that the Democratic Party of Utah endorsed Evan McMullin, an independent, and not their own candidate.

The fact that we are pushing for redistricting reform in states across the country. We did it here in Ohio, even though it would weaken the reliability of certain dark blue districts. It's better for the state, it's better for the country.

How do you react to that hypothetical and where does the Forward Party fit in?

Andrew Yang:

If there are reform-minded folks within the Democratic Party, I am pumped, I'm happy to do anything I can to make their jobs easier, make their lives easier.

Well, and you know that that is the alternate past. I am someone again who saw what the Democratic Party of Nevada did when it was actually up for a vote. And what they did is they obeyed their institutional interests.

And I love public servants who decide to go against their short-term self-interest to do the right thing. I will say I don't think that is a dominant feature.

And so, folks who are examples of putting country over party or community over party, thank you, thank you, thank you. I feel like my job is to try and make it so that people can do that without ending their careers.

I will give you another example of this too. Dean Phillips was a vice chair of the Democratic Party, sitting third term member of Congress. And when he decided to challenge Joe Biden in this Democratic primary, there was not exactly like a, “Oh, this is great, like let's have a conversation.”

Like that to me was a shining example of Democrats having an opportunity to do the right thing. And then deciding, “No, no, no, let's malign Dean Phillips. Let's blot him out. Let's ridicule him. Let's pretend he is a madman instead of a patriot. And instead the sanest thing to do is to back the 81-year-old and come in with a 37% approval rating.”

And that struck me as like incredibly institutionalized and closed-minded. And the fact is …

And by the way, Andy Kim is a freaking example of this. I love Andy Kim. Andy Kim's a patriot of public servant. He stepped up. But ask Andy Kim how many of the New Jersey delegation in DC endorsed him versus Tammy Murphy? And he'll tell you no one endorsed him.

You know why? Because he flouted the hierarchy, he jumped his spot in line. And the Democratic Party is fundamentally more about the hierarchy and who's next in line than it is about what's best for the people of New Jersey, the people of Ohio, et cetera, et cetera.

Ken Harbaugh:

Andy Kim won the nomination. I think that's a win in my column, the Democratic Party chose Andy Kim.

Andrew Yang:

Oh, yeah, yeah. No, the rank-and-file Democrats for sure, but you had like his entire congressional delegation of the state of New Jersey who knew Andy, who were friends with Andy, who were told by the party bosses, “No, it's Tammy Murphy's turn.”

And so, they would be like, “Hey Andy, I know I sit next to you every day, but it turns out I'm endorsing this other person.” And then that happened person, after person, after person, after person.

You talk to Democrats in private about their concerns about Joe Biden, they'll say one thing. You stick a mic in their face, they'll be, “This guy like could go outside and fly an airplane tomorrow.”

So, if you say to me, “Hey, the Democratic Party's going to reform itself, it's got this, it's leaders are going to do the right thing.” And like they have opportunities, sometimes they take it, sure.

And by the way, did I support Andy Kim? Yes, I did. And I'm thrilled that he won and I hope that more true patriots like Andy Kim decide to run who would put country over party, and then maybe the case you're making would instill more confidence in me.

Ken Harbaugh:

Okay. Yeah. But if your example of the intransigence of the Democratic Party is Andy Kim, I don't think it works because he is the Democratic nominee, the rank-and-file that the actual Democratic Party picked Andy Kim.

And that to me is an incredibly encouraging sign of the direction the party can go in.

Andrew Yang:

Well, I actually will agree with you in terms of like the New Jersey dynamic. So, you had Andy Kim, and the people of New Jersey and the voters, and then you had the machine and Tammy Murphy. And in this case the people and Andy Kim overcame the machine. And I'm incredibly happy for that.

And the question I would submit to our listeners is in what proportion of these situations where the people versus the machine, does the machine win or does the people win?

And then if people think that people are going to win the vast majority of those battles, then I'll be like, “Well then, we'll be in better shape.”

If people like me actually know that the machine wins the vast majority of those battles, then you might want to invest in a new machine that has no special interest attached a la the Forward Party.

Ken Harbaugh:

Tell me what the Forward Party is up to between now and November. I would imagine there is a bit of internal, maybe not friction, but this idea that we've got long-term plans, but we also, have a house that's on fire.

Andrew Yang:

Oh, yeah. So, we're backing some great candidates, Ken. I'm super excited about John Avlon in New York's first district who's running as a Democrat. His primarily as June 25th if anyone is in that neck of the woods. John Curtis, who's running for MIT Romney's old senate seat in Utah.

And so, this is an example of something that Democrats will ignore but it's hugely important. So, there are 11 candidates running for Mitt Romney's old senate seat in the Republican primary. Eight of them have endorsed Donald Trump.

The ninth is a guy named John Curtis who started the Conservative Climate Caucus because he knows climate change is real, even though he has an R next to his name.

And because it's an 11-person primary, there's a real chance that John Curtis wins and prevents Mitt Romney's successor from being a MAGA stooge.

Now, if you are a Democrat, you might think, “Well, John Curtis has an R next to his name, so he bad.” But if there's like a sane Republican running against the MAGA crew, then you have to back the sane Republican.

And the Democrats actually might even get on board with this one because there is no competitive general election. So, this isn't a situation where it's like, “Oh, let me elevate the bad person because they're more beatable or whatnot.”

So, if you have any friends in Utah, get them behind John Curtis because you'd much rather have a principled non-Trump senator out of Utah than Mike Lee, the sequel.

There's an independent congressional candidate in North Carolina named Shelane Etchison, who's a special forces veteran. She's awesome. You should have her on. Adam Frisch, who managed to drum Lauren Boebert out of that Colorado district.

And then local candidates in Nevada, Pennsylvania, (where I'm heading next week) Florida, all over the country who just want to make good things happen for the people. And again, are not beholden to special interests.

So, if that sounds like an appealing suite, please do check out forwardparty.com and get involved. You might even wind up a chapter leader.

Ken Harbaugh:

Awesome. Are you still selling books, Andrew? We'll put a link in the show notes if you are.

Andrew Yang:

Oh, well, sure. I mean, I wrote a book about why our democracy's not working so well, called Forward. But if you put anything in the show notes, please do a link to my Ted Talk because I think your people would enjoy it a lot.

Ken Harbaugh:

You got it. We will. Great having you on, Andrew. We'd love to have you back.

Andrew Yang:

Ken, congrats to you, man. It was fun having like a rational, principled, solutions-oriented discussion with someone who cares deeply about the country. So, keep up the awesome work.

Ken Harbaugh:

Likewise. Thank you, Andrew. Talk soon.

Thanks for listening to Burn the Boats. If you have any feedback, please email the team at [email protected]. We're always looking to improve the show.

For updates and more, follow us on Twitter @Team_Harbaugh. And if you enjoyed this episode, don't forget to rate and review.

Burn the Boats is a production of Evergreen Podcasts. Our producer is Declan Rohrs, and Sean Rule-Hoffman is our audio engineer. Special thanks to Evergreen executive producers, Joan Andrews, Michael DeAloia, and David Moss.

I'm Ken Harbaugh, and this is Burn the Boats, a podcast about big decisions.