Charlie Sadoff: Right-Wing extremism

Ken Harbaugh:

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Charlie Sadoff:

What's going to happen in November, one of two possibilities. Either Trump's going to win or Biden's going to win. And so, if Biden wins, does anyone think that Trump's going to accept that? There's no evidence to suggest that Trump or any of his supporters are going to accept the result if Biden wins this coming November.

Ken Harbaugh:

I'm Ken Harbaugh, and this is Burn the Boats, a podcast about big decisions. My guest today is Charlie Sadoff, the director of the award-winning documentary film Against All Enemies, which tracks the rise of violent extremism in the U.S. and the involvement of military veterans in anti-government activity. Charlie, welcome to the show.

Charlie Sadoff:

Great to be with you, Ken.

Ken Harbaugh:

I want to start with the trailer because it is just so gripping. We'll pick up the conversation right afterwards. Here it is.

[Trailer Playing]

Male:

There are places in our military where we are trained to start and fuel insurgencies.

Male:

That's same kind of shit they've been doing their whole career. Now, they're doing it here inside the United States.

Male:

Anybody who says that this can't happen in a worse way, either they're ignorant or they're part of the problem.

Male:

Today, domestic terrorism is the greatest terrorist threat facing the United States.

Male:

The CIA has this tool where they measure levels of insurgency, and if you just apply the tool to the U.S., we are an incipient insurgency.

Male:

How did I end up on one side of that door and my fellow veterans, how did they end up on the other side of that door?

Male:

If you believe the country's under attack, you have a certain set of skills, you're a force multiplier.

Male:

They’re fucking coming.

Male:

It's going to end up the people versus the government.

Male:

If you're armed, then you're prepared to defend your family. And if you're not armed, you're dog meat.

Female:

When you can convince people that their leaders are not valid, then you give them the excuse to overthrow that leadership.

Male:

And that's not new. The issue is, is that the people that we are identifying as extremists, they're identifying as patriots or freedom fighters. It almost sounds like I'm talking about terrorism right now.

Female:

Everyone becomes more violent in the aftermath of warfare. What we don't note is what happens when we're talking about a 20-year war.

Male:

I hope that people are fucking scared because being scared motivates people.

Male:

This is how country's fall apart. I could see a civil war.

Male:

And this fight, it's far from over and it may never be over.

Multiple speakers:

I do solemnly swear to support the constitution of the United States against all enemies, foreign and domestic, so help me God.

[End of Trailer]

Ken Harbaugh:

Charlie, many members of this audience know that I helped produce Against All Enemies, but I did not get to know the characters in this film the way you did. You spent time with many of them. You went to their homes. Can you tell us about General E, the militia leader from Texas who opens up the film?

Charlie Sadoff:

Yeah, he's a really interesting guy. He lives on a ranch in southern part of Texas, and when you get there, there's a gate and you got to call in. He is got to wave you in because we found out later, if you come on his property and he hasn't waved you in, he is likely to shoot you.

So, that was our first introduction to him. Yeah, I mean, as you can see in the film, I mean, he lives what he calls the sort of cowboy lifestyle. He's someone who was in the military. I don't think he actually ever served overseas.

I think he was injured, and he was there for … he got out. But he's someone who's got very strong opinions about a lot of things and where he gets his information from that informs these opinions is sometimes not the most trustworthy sources.

Ken Harbaugh:

Well, that's a big part of it. The avalanche of disinformation that is driving so many of these people into the arms of these extremist groups. You said General E would shoot you if you entered his property uninvited.

I mean, the threats that they think they're under, so many of them are invented. I mean, my parents live in Texas, they have a gun in every closet. When I hear General E and his fellow militia members talk about the things they're fighting against, many of those things aren't even real, like the biggest one, the big lie about a stolen election. Did you pick up on that in his presence, the overriding sense of paranoia?

Charlie Sadoff:

Yeah, I mean, so he lives in Texas, so one of his big issues is immigration and he's been on the border, he's led his own private militias to the border to enforce the law and take the law in his own hands down there. I don't know that they've ever actually engaged with anybody.

But he's someone who firmly believes that the election was stolen from Donald Trump. And when I asked him why, I mean, what evidence he had, his answer was the same as Randy Ireland, who we interviewed from The Proud Boys, which is they just couldn't fathom the fact that Joe Biden got 80 some million votes. It didn't compute for them.

And he didn't really get into the details of Dominion Voting Systems or any of that, which I'm sure he … they know that if we had, he would've known the misinformation about that.

But he just couldn't believe that Biden won and therefore it had to have been stolen. And that animates a lot of what he feels the country has been stolen from him, that there isn't, that there's a crime family. That's the big thing.

The Biden crime family that lie has been propagated throughout social media world where he lives and therefore the country is not being ruled by the proper leader. And as someone who served in the military, he sort of feels it's his duty to right that wrong.

Ken Harbaugh:

You mentioned Randy Ireland as well, a leader, a former leader in the New York Proud Boys. I look at the interviews with both of them with General E that's his self-anointed title and Randy Ireland, they seem to sincerely believe what they're saying.

And I think that's an important thing to point out because it stands in such stark contrast to the people who have provoked them into acting on those beliefs. The Eric Greitenses of the world, the J.D. Vances, both of who are profiled in the film, who don't really buy into the lie about the stolen election.

They're being cynical, they know better, but their rhetoric drives people like General E and Randy Ireland to take up arms.

Charlie Sadoff:

Well, you mentioned Greitens and J.D. Vance, who are both former military and I agree with you, but I think the person who's probably the most influential, particularly on General E, and he talks about this in the film, is Michael Flynn.

And Michael Flynn is someone who has great influence, not just because of who he was in the military, he was a general, but because he really knows how to use what he calls the 21st century battlefield, which is a digital war.

And Michael Flynn is one of the experts in this, and he is able to convince people like General E of conspiracy theories around COVID, around the election, you name it, all of the things that Michael Flynn is out there talking about.

And these are things that people like General E believe to be true, and they're willing to act on it. And the question is, how far are they willing to act on it?

And I think that's what the film sort of gets into, which is where does this end up and what do people like General E and Randy Ireland who have combat experience, have military training, where does this go with them believing the things that they believe and being led by the likes of Michael Flynn?

Ken Harbaugh:

It feels like we are in a uniquely dangerous moment. We see the historical analogs in the film, and we're going to have Kathleen Belew on to talk about those. But there is something about the political moment we inhabit right now that feels unprecedented.

What are the factors driving that? And feel free to bring in those historical analogs as well, but there is something about this time that is really alarming.

Charlie Sadoff:

Well, we have, as you mentioned, what we talked about the film is the historical analogs that coming out of war, whether it's the Civil War or World War I or World War II, or particularly the Vietnam War, there's an increase in violence in society and certainly people coming back from war are experiencing that.

And the thing that makes it different now is one — well, there's a couple things. Mike Breen, who I know has been on your show a lot, talks about this in the film. One is the idea of social media.

So, in the 80s, a guy named Louis Beam, who was decorated war hero in Vietnam, came back and became the head of the KKK in Texas. And in order to help spread the message of the KKK and to build up his army, he basically helped invent the early form of the internet, something called Liberty net.

And obviously it didn't have the reach that social media has today, but he realized the importance of that, of spreading his ideas.

So, today, with the internet and social media the way it is, and it's just a fabric of everyone, part of everyone's lives, it's much easier to spread this misinformation to recruit people into violent movements that a lot of these leaders are espousing and to help radicalize people.

And it's also easier, as Kris Goldsmith often says, is to stay in your bubble and to not get any other information that might help dissuade you from some of these ideas.

The other thing is that it seems like the Republican party is giving cover to a lot of these folks, and some of them are members, elected leaders of the Republican party like J.D. Vance. And back in the 20s, in the late 20s, the Democratic party had fallen prey to this. They were giving cover to the KKK, but the Democratic party after the conventional late 20s-

Ken Harbaugh:

1920s.

Charlie Sadoff:

1920s, broke free of this and repudiated the KKK and the Republican party hasn't done that yet. In fact, it seems like they might be going the other direction. So, that's what makes this moment particularly dangerous.

I would say the combination of social media as a way of recruiting and radicalizing, and then the political cover from elected leaders as well as high ranking military officers like Michael Flynn.

Ken Harbaugh:

Well, Donald Trump plays a significant role as well if you make the comparison to the Democratic party in the 1920s. They didn't have a single charismatic figure who held the rest of the party hostage.

I mean, you look at what has just happened in the past few weeks in the Republican party with Trump loyalists taking over the RNC, a family member being nominated as co-chair, mass layoffs. I mean, this doesn't really have a historical parallel in this country.

I mean, it's closer to urbanism in Hungary than anything else where you have an entire political apparatus co-opted by a single family. I mean, it really is ironic that the General Es of the world point to the Bidens as a crime family when Trump is literally co-opting the political machinery of an entire political party to provide for his legal defense.

Charlie Sadoff:

Yeah, I mean, I think Trump, I think when we first started making this movie, Ken, most people who were sort of agitating about the threat of political violence were considered a sort of hyperbolic on the left and people just agitating to create drama where there really was none.

But since we've made the film, Trump and Tucker Carlson and people like him, they themselves have been talking about the potential of political violence and Trump himself, I would encourage people to go look and see what Trump's speeches to the country have been on holidays associated with the military.

So, Veterans Day and Memorial Day, and look at what he said in 2023 on those holidays, the message he sends out, it's scary stuff. And the fact that he's now basically controls the Republican party, and as you mentioned, his family controlling the RNC, there is no real check on him anymore.

And so, what he's saying, and the fact that he seems himself to be now warning about the threat of political violence is not just coming from hyperbolic people on the left makes me more fearful that that's where we're going to end up.

Ken Harbaugh:

Well, we have a recent survey showing that 30% of Americans and a much higher percentage of self-described conservatives and Republicans feel that violence against the government may be necessary in a democracy.

I mean, that to me is one of the most terrifying statistics coming out of this age of Trump because it's not just an endorsement of political violence, it's a rejection of democratic values. The way you make change in a democracy is you vote your folks in, and you vote your opponents out, you don't try to shoot them.

Charlie Sadoff:

Yeah. And we talk about this in the film that this is not new. I mean, the idea of trying to intimidate or use violence or threats to win elections is not new in this country, goes back to after the Civil War. And we see sort of an echo of that today.

And I think what is important for people to realize is that what all of this is about is power and gaining power and making sure that the right people are in power.

And so, we often hear the phrase by any means necessary. Louis Beam in our film talks about it. It's echoed by the folks who were convicted of trying to kidnap Gretchen Whitmer, you hear it around January 6th, this idea that we have to get control by any means necessary.

And that's something that we have to be really wary of. What does that mean? I think we know what it means and if you just game it out.

What's going to happen in November, one of two possibilities. Either Trump's going to win, and we talk in the film about how he could win through nefarious means about controlling the vote in certain counties and certain states, the whole elector scheme or Biden's going to win.

And so, if Biden wins, does anyone think that Trump's going to accept that? There's no evidence to suggest that Trump or any of the supporters are going to accept the result if Biden wins this coming November. And so, what happens next?

Ken Harbaugh:

Well, as you say in the film, and as you just reiterated, this is not new, at least the pursuit of power and control is not new, but there are practical aspects that are novel and terrifying and dangerous. You pointed out two of them.

Social media has the ability to spread disinformation in a viral way. The cover provided by a major political organization. And I would submit a third one, the ubiquity of guns. That is something that even in the 80s you didn't have.

I mean, there were readily available, but today we have 400 million guns in this country, in a country of 300 million people. You have permitless carry, you can get a gun in Texas where General E lives without having to have any kind of training or permit. That has changed the political violence equation.

Charlie Sadoff:

For sure. And it's interesting that people like General E and Randy Ireland from the Proud Boys, the issue that really animates them besides the election and the big lie is Second Amendment. I mean, that's the thing that if they feel like their rights are being encroached on in any way, that's the thing they say, “Well, that's going to trigger a civil war for sure.”

So, it's the ubiquity of guns, it's also sort of this threat that guns are going to be taken away from them. And I wouldn't be surprised if somewhere down the line, between now and November, a sort of false premise of two A rights being taken away is really prominent in the election.

I can't imagine that Trump won't somehow try and use that, whether it's true or not, to try and gin up people on his base because that's the thing that really animates people.

And then of course, just the fact that there's so many guns out there. People like Kyle Rittenhouse running around with guns. Imagine what someone who actually has training with guns, who knows what they're doing, could do if they were inspired to take action.

And I think that, you know, we get into that in the film with the Oath Keepers. These are people who know what they're doing. Some of them are former special forces.

And so, people like that who have been trained by the U.S. military, the greatest fighting force in the history of the world, what happens when they come back, and they use those skills in the United States against their fellow civilians? Hasn't happened to a large degree yet. But that's the fear.

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What's the appeal of groups like the Oath Keepers and the Three Percenters to these veterans? And I think we need to caveat this by saying the vast majority of veterans don't join extremist groups, but enough do, and they serve as force multipliers. What is the recruiting pitch?

Charlie Sadoff:

Well, you can speak to this better than I can being a veteran, but the people we speak to in the film lay it out pretty well. Kris Goldsmith, who I know has been on your show a lot, Mike Breen, what they all talk about is a couple things.

One, this idea that when you come back from the military, you no longer have that sense of mission and purpose that you had. And someone like Stewart Rhodes, who, not anymore because he is in jail, but people like Stewart Rhodes are really charismatic figures. Michael Flynn, for whatever you want to say about him, is a really charismatic figure.

So, when Stewart Rhodes comes along, and Kris talks about this, when Stuart Ro comes along and talks about the Second Amendment being threatened, talks about the constitution being torn up, gives you the opportunity to be surrounded by former military law enforcement. It gives you a sense of purpose, gives you a sense of family, and that's something that's very appealing.

And as Denver Riggleman says in the film, you get to fight again. And that's something that I think … I mean, you can speak to it better than I can, but that's something that a lot of veterans seem to miss.

Ken Harbaugh:

Yeah, Denver Riggleman, former Republican congressman from Virginia lays it out pretty compellingly. You come home, you're aimless, you're missing that sense of camaraderie and purpose. And these groups not only give you that back, but they give you a mission like he says, like you just said, they give you a chance to fight again.

And we saw the aftermath of that mindset on January 6th. Stewart Rhodes is in jail, as are a lot of the ringleaders. But in talking with people like Kathleen Belew and others, we've learned that membership in these organizations has actually grown.

The absolute number of them may have s shrunken a little bit, but only because they're consolidating. The number of members in domestic violent extremism has grown. And we're a little off script here outside the subjects the movie covers, but do you have a theory as to why people are still joining these organizations?

Charlie Sadoff:

Well, I think, Kathleen and Ali Soufan do touch on this a little bit in the film, and they pointed back to January 6th actually, where January 6th was actually a great recruiting tool because it showed that a relatively small group of people could infiltrate and strike at the heart of power in the United States of America.

I mean, take seizing the Capitol. Now they didn't overturn the election and a lot of the people who were there, and the foot soldiers as Stan McChrystal and Phil refers to them, a lot of them are in jail now, by the way, being referred to as political prisoners.

Donald Trump from what I've heard, is saying that a lot of them could be pardoned and released if he was elected president. They're not considered insurrectionists by large part of people in MAGA, they're considered heroes. And that's a good recruiting tool.

This isn't your normal sort of run-of-the-mill protest. This is something that's bigger than that. And I think that while there might be sort of the countervailing concern about being arrested and that's what a lot of these people have been, there's also this idea that maybe this movement could actually do something. Maybe we really can be successful next time around.

And so, let's see what we can do. And as Mike Breen said in the film, the people you got to be worried about are the people that you don't even know exist until you're two years out. And we're two years out now, we're more than two years actually.

So, there's people out there who are training, learning what they did right, learning what they did wrong and potentially gearing up for the next insurrection.

Ken Harbaugh:

I think the vast majority of Americans look at January 6th and they think of it as a stain on our national honor, an embarrassing moment, something that the Justice Department is dealing with.

Whereas the insurrectionists, the people you talk to in this film, the extremists see it as a rallying cry. I mean, we know it is an incredible recruiting tool. They actually see it (in spite of the fact that many of the leaders are in jail), as a massive success.

And people need to wake up to that fact that it was a moment to showcase their capabilities. It was an incredible recruiting tool, and it was a rallying cry for the next J 6. The fact that the former president of the United States is referring to the J 6th convicts, they're now convicted, many of them in jail as hostages and martyrs.

You don't get much better validation than that. And when you go back to your first point about the political cover being provided to extremists as the differentiator this time, that's the example.

Charlie Sadoff:

Yeah, and I think getting into the weeds a little bit in terms of it being a recruiting tool, there's a book that Kathleen Belew refers to, The Turner Diaries, which has been around since the 80s, I guess, that Timothy McVeigh had.

It's sort of been the Bible and sort of the field manual for violent extremist groups for a number for three, four decades now. And in that book, there is a mortar attack on the seat of power that is successful and that it's small targeted attack. And that's the other reason they're viewing this as a success.

The Turner Diaries sort of plans these things out for them, and that was one of the steps. And the next step is the complete control after a nuclear war of the U.S. government. And I don't think that we're going to get there, but that's the other thing that sort of animating a lot of this, the book, The Turner Diaries

Ken Harbaugh:

We're coming up on the anniversary of the Murrah Federal Building bombing in Oklahoma City. You mentioned Timothy McVeigh, army vet inspired by The Turner Diaries, and he was trying to recreate that moment, not bring down the government by himself, but create a flashpoint, a rallying cry that would be recreated around the country.

When people talk about the next civil war in this country, the smart ones, the real thoughtful analysts aren't picturing massed armies. They're picturing a thousand incidents like that, like the attempt to kidnap Gretchen Whitmer multiplied times a hundred, like Timothy McVeigh's bombing multiplied by orders of magnitude.

In your conversations with the extremists, is that also what they're envisioning? I can't imagine they're picturing another Antietam or something like that.

Charlie Sadoff:

Yeah, we didn't get into it so much with General E and Randy about what they're actually planning. General E says, “We don't know what's going to happen.” He does say — I think this is in the trailer, he said, “If you're armed, you're armed. And if you're not, you're dog meat.”

So, I think a lot of them view it as going to be sort of anarchy and every man for themselves and thousands of incidents across the country in streets, in smaller counties and everywhere, not mass armies rallying against the National Guard or whatever happens.

But I think that, and Denver Riggleman describes this as kinetic events, little things that spark bigger things. And I think that's what we have to be concerned about is what are those smaller kinetic events that can lead to bigger, more mass confrontations? I mean, do you agree with that?

Ken Harbaugh:

Yeah, I do. I don't think we have many examples in history that can be instructive here because the divisions don't break down cleanly along geographic lines. If anything, the divisions are urban rural, not to say there aren't Trump supporters in cities and Democrats in rural areas, but very generally speaking, I think those are going to the conflict points.

But to those who fantasize about a clean break, where does that break happen? I mean, Texas can't go its own way because there are loyal patriots. I'm using that the right way, who support the United States in Texas who don't want that to happen, who wouldn't let that happen.

You can't have a clean schism the way some people imagine the conflicts are going to happen in an atomized way across the country if we get to that point. And in some ways, that's even more terrifying.

The film doesn't paint that picture. It dives deep into the mindset of the insurrectionists and the extremists themselves. But I'm wondering in getting into that mindset, did you develop any sympathies, not for their worldviews, not for their extremism, but for the people themselves?

Were there moments where you were like, “I can have a beer with this person. I wish they didn't think the way they did.”

Charlie Sadoff:

Oh my, General E is great to talk to. I mean, fascinating and very charismatic. So, I mean, I myself could see how if you spend enough time with him, you could be sucked into his worldview because he really believes it, he's very compelling, he's fun to talk to, he's funny.

And Randy, Randy is someone who's not as charismatic as General E, but you use the word sympathetic, I don't know if sympathetic, certainly I can empathize and I saw where they were coming from. I didn't walk away thinking like, “God, these are bad people.”

I walked away thinking, “Man, it's such a shame that General E and Randy have been convinced of these things,” and are threatening not just the potentially the future of our country. They're willing to take action on it, but their own lives because Michael Flynn and Eric Greitens and J.D. Vance, they're doing just fine.

They're out there campaigning, making money, getting elected, and they're pushing people like General E and Randy Ireland into situations that could land them in jail, even worse. And it's a shame because these are good people. They served in our military, a lot of these people served honorably.

And we get into that in the film, and they come back and they still think they're being patriots and we're wasting their talents and their energy and their charisma on a lie. That's a shame, that's a shame for them. It's a shame for us. It's a shame for our country.

Ken Harbaugh:

There's this moment with Louis Beam, the former Grand Dragon I believe, of the Texas KKK. I might have the title wrong, but he was a leader in the Texas KKK, and he pulls out his military award citations for bravery in battle in Vietnam. Louis Beam died under mysterious circumstances years ago.

But when I saw him reading those citations, and especially when I saw him recount the story of hearing a buddy of his dying over the radio and he was unable to get to him, that was a moment of, you're right, sympathy isn't quite the right word. Empathy in Louis Beam's case, and probably in the case of some of these people drawn into these extremist groups, the trauma that they've been through and the vulnerability that exposes them to the manipulations of these groups.

Charlie Sadoff:

Yeah, and I think Kris Goldsmith talks a lot about that from a personal experience in the film. And I don't want to speak to that personally. I mean, we do talk about it a lot in the film, and I think it's clearly something that is a factor here.

And again, you and other veterans can speak to that better than I can. I think we let people like Kris speak to it in the film from a very personal point of view.

And the point of us going back and showing Louis Beam is that that trauma can be manipulated into something that's dangerous. And Louis Beam might be someone who is kind of malevolent from the start. I think we can't ignore the fact that some of these people are racist and who knows why someone becomes a racist.

But by the time he went into the military, he probably was already racist and when he came back, he might have been more racist. And that animates a lot of this, a lot of it is trying to keep people of color, immigrants out of power in the United States. That's sort of a driving force behind all of this. Like we talked about at the beginning, the right people staying in power.

But certainly, coming back from war on the trauma that he had, I don't think it helped, but he used that story as a recruiting tool, so he was particularly manipulative. And I think we see a lot of that with Michael Flynn, where he uses his military experience as a recruiting tool, as a means of empowering the people who are listening to him. He uses that as a tool.

Ken Harbaugh:

Well, Stewart Rhodes is a great example of that as well with his eye patch and never calling out the folks who call him a combat vet. I mean, he shot his eye out at a shooting range, not down range, never actually served in combat, but that certainly never stopped him from pretending that he is a wounded vet. Right?

Charlie Sadoff:

Well, the wounded vet is a much more compelling story, I think.

Ken Harbaugh:

Right. The film does have some uplifting notes and I would love to end with one of those. Can you talk about Kris Goldsmith, who very easily could have wound up on this path and found himself in one of these extremist organizations, but through the concern and love of his fellow veterans found a different path.

Charlie Sadoff:

Well, yeah, and he gets into detail in, in the film about that path out of the bubble he was in. I think the most important thing he talks about is the fact that he had off-ramps out of the bubble he was in.

And what he expresses and what a lot of people express is that those off-ramps don't necessarily exist for veterans anymore. You can stay in your bubble, you can live there for as long as you want, and there's no face to face.

You're not coming in con … look, we started off talking about it. General E lives on our ranch and if you come on his property unannounced, you are putting your life in your own hands. I don't imagine he's interacting with a lot of people who have a different worldview than he does either online or in person. And so, what's the off ramp for him?

My hope is that he sees the film and maybe there's a little light that’s shed on what's going on and he's open to some other conversations.

And that's one of the reasons I think we made the film right is to not just preach to the choir, but that we hope that veterans or family, members of veterans who see them sliding towards some of these groups will somehow open up a door and have a conversation that can maybe lead to something else. Because that's what got Kris off that track. We know what can happen. Question is, will it?

Ken Harbaugh:

Right, where can people see the film and how can they support veterans having access to the film?

Charlie Sadoff:

So, the film is going to be released March 29th on all your VOD streamers, Amazon, Apple, Google Play, all of them we can find the film on any of them.

And then on our website againstallenemiesfilm.com, there is a place where you can donate so through a nonprofit Veterans Fighting Fascism so that veterans can see the film for free, either in person or online. So, we encourage everyone to both see the film themselves and also donate so veterans can see the film.

Ken Harbaugh:

Thank you so much Charlie. I was going to say, I can't wait to see the film, but I've seen the film a hundred times. It keeps getting better. Thanks for joining us.

Charlie Sadoff:

Thanks Ken.

Ken Harbaugh:

Thanks again to Charlie for joining me. You can watch Against All Enemies when it releases on March 29th via the link in the show description.

Thanks for listening to Burn the Boats. If you have any feedback, please email the team at [email protected]. We're always looking to improve the show.

For updates and more, follow us on Twitter at Team_Harbaugh. And if you enjoyed this episode, don't forget to rate, and review.

Burn the Boats is a production of Evergreen Podcasts. Our producer is Declan Rohrs and Sean Rule-Hoffman is our audio engineer. Special thanks to Evergreen executive producers Joan Andrews, Michael DeAloia, and David Moss.

I'm Ken Harbaugh and this is Burn the Boats, a podcast about big decisions.