Dr. Khyati Joshi: Christmas & Christian Privilege

Dr. Khyati Joshi:

A certain segment of the Republican Party is drawing on that fear. And they're doing it, they're very good at it. They're very, very good at it.

And they're drawing on that fear that who I am, and what I am, and what I believe in is being taken away, and it's being given to other folks.

Ken Harbaugh:

I'm Ken Harbaugh, and this is Burn the Boats, a podcast about big decisions.

My guest today is Dr. Khyati Joshi, an expert on the intersecting issues of race and religion in the US. Her book, White Christian Privilege, describes how Christianity has influenced US history, embedded itself in our institutions and society, and pushed religious freedom to the wayside.

Khyati, welcome to Burn the Boats.

Dr. Khyati Joshi:

Thank you for having me, Ken. I'm happy to be here.

Ken Harbaugh:

Great to have you. The term Christian nationalism seems to be everywhere these days, and with the looming 2024 election, I wanted to talk to you about how a militant form of Christianity has leveraged all of that faith's structural advantages in our society to promote a particular political vision for the country.

I want to start, though, with the foundational argument. You make the case in your book in an extremely compelling way that the supremacy of Christianity in the US actually comes at the expense of religious freedom for others.

Give us some examples of that in operation and then we'll pivot to the political moment we're in.

Dr. Khyati Joshi:

Sure. Well, a couple of things. First, I think we can think about some things that we are taught way back in elementary school, in first grade and second grade, which is how this country was founded.

And going to public school in the United States, I learned that this country was founded for religious freedom. Well, that's part of the story. That's part of the story.

The full story is it was founded on religious freedom for Puritans. They were really in it for themselves. They weren't in it to provide religious freedom for everyone, because otherwise, some of the things that happened to natives Americans would not have happened.

So, the idea that Christianity is embedded in our history goes very far back.

There are a couple of other instances that I can bring up. In the early 1800s, Congress passed what is known as the Civilization Act of 1819.

This provided federal funds to missionaries to convert to civilize Native Americans. Civilize meant convert, bring to Christianity, assimilate, basically lose indigenous ways.

So, your listeners might be saying, “But wait a minute, we have freedom of religion. We're not supposed to have state funds going to religious activities.” But we have a long, an unfortunately strong history of that happening.

And so much today of what is thought about in terms of separation of church and state. Also, there's so much misunderstanding around that phrase.

So, I always take an informal poll in my classes, like, “Where does this phrase come from?” And most people think it's in our founding documents, but it's not.

It was in a letter from Thomas Jefferson to a congregation in Danbury, Connecticut, because they were concerned that we did not have a state religion. That phrase was in that letter.

And then it was lost for a while, and then it was picked up in the early 20th century in Supreme Court cases. Justices cited that letter and cited that phrase. And so, that became part of our everyday language. But there's so much misinformation.

So, I'll say that some of the pickle that we're in today as a nation is because of misinformation and not understanding real United States history.

Ken Harbaugh:

Khyati, I want to stay in history for a little bit because I'm a nerd, but I also think it really informs the current moment that 1819 act that you referenced was really just one more iteration of this colonial impulse that goes back to old Europe and the laws, even Vatican laws, that said, “If an area did not have Christianity, it was free for the taking.” You addressed that a little bit as well.

Dr. Khyati Joshi:

Yeah. You're referring to the doctrine of discovery. Something that in the last few years has gained some traction in terms of, “Hey, we need to learn about this.”

But it's a series of papal dictates starting 1455 that really first was aimed at conquering and taking the lands of West Africa by Portugal. But this really extended, and this really is the predecessor of …

Well, I should say this provides the strong foundation for manifest destiny in the United States. The notion that Puritans came here, it was God's will. And to live out their destiny they really needed to take this land from sea to shining sea.

So, we can really draw a straight line from doctrine of discovery, to manifest destiny, then moving towards today's American exceptionalism.

Ken Harbaugh:

This founding myth rooted in the Puritan search for religious freedom doesn't really acknowledge their inherent intolerance, right? I mean, the Puritans were very puritanical when it came to their religious practices.

How does that inform the next 250 years of American history? I know that there's a lot backed into that question. What I'm getting at is the roots of Christianity in the United States weren't exactly founded in intolerance.

Dr. Khyati Joshi:

That's right. That's right. And that's the piece that gets left out, which is so critical. And so, if we could understand that the whole story of what happened when the Puritans came, I think that would make a big difference.

But we really see how this thread of Christianity not only embedded in United States history is something we really have to understand, but Christianity's role in the construction of whiteness.

Because what has happened, Ken, is that because of First Amendment and freedom of religion, there is a sense that, oh, that combined with the fact that sometimes people, quote unquote see religious diversity.

They see synagogues, they see mosques in their communities, they see Gurdwaras, which is a Sikh house of worship. They see Hindu temples and the myriad of Christian churches.

So, there's a sense like, “Well, we have first amendment of freedom of religion and it's real. It's here.” That's an illusion. That's an illusion.

And we have to go back to see how Christianity, what happened was, is to understand Christianity's role in the construction of whiteness, we have to understand how some historical events that we know today, that get categorized around race and ethnicity and understanding race and ethnicity in America, really also have a lot to do with religion.

But that religion piece has been hidden, and we have to really shine light on it. And when we do, it makes sense to people.

Ken Harbaugh:

You subtitle your book, The Illusion of Religious Equality in America. If you'll indulge me, I'd like to ask a personal question.

Growing up in the South, what was your experience with that? What was your first realization that this religious freedom we extol so proudly wasn't quite the reality?

Dr. Khyati Joshi:

Well, it took me a while to figure that out. I grew up in Cobb County, Georgia. I am proud to be from Atlanta and proud to be from Georgia, but it was not easy.

Looking back now, I feel very confident in saying my family's probably one of the first 15 Indian families to settle in Atlanta, Georgia after immigration laws opened up in 1965.

And I wasn't black, and I wasn't white, and people really didn't know what to do with me. I had in school wonderful teachers who took care of me and who cared for me, but they didn't know how to help me be proud of who I was.

One of my teachers tried. Ms. Burns, my French teacher, and I did not do well in French class, but she really did try to get me to open up about who I was.

Now, what's interesting, Ken, is I was very proud to be Indian. On the weekends, I had my community. I hang out with our youth group, hang out at the temple and the cultural center. But Monday through Friday, I would have done anything to shed this brown skin.

It made me different. I was made fun of for the food I ate. I was made fun of for what kids thought my religion was. And the real sad thing about it is that sometimes some of my teachers actually joined in, in making fun of me.

And it took me a long time to figure out, you know what, that shouldn't have happened. That should have never happened.

So, there were also times that I wasn't discriminated against, but I didn't quite have the secret passwords to fit in. And here's one example.

I was in ninth grade English class, and I did not do well in English class either. I struggled very much in school, and a lot of it had to do with the bullying I faced. And I was in English class and we were learning about similes and metaphors.

And I was in an independent school by this time. I was in a private school for middle school and high school.

And my teacher said, similes metaphors, blah, blah, blah. Like the story of the Good Samaritan. And I just assumed I didn't read it, therefore I didn't understand, because I didn't do well in class.

I later realized, “Oh, that's a story from the Bible.” And there was nothing wrong with her using that as an example, what was wrong was the assumption that all kids know what it is.

Because as someone who did not go to Christian Sunday School, where else was I going to learn that if I wasn't taught that in school? And so, there was the assumption that everybody knows these stories.

And that's part of what's Christian normativity when Christianity is in the nooks and crannies of our lives that people forget to recognize it as Christian and just come to see it as American or just come to see it as part of everyday life.

Ken Harbaugh:

I want to talk a bit more about how pervasive that religious hegemony of Christianity is in America. Because I think people like me, certainly people in my orbit just take it for granted.

And I'm thinking about the case you present in your book about depictions of the divine. I mean, we assume that God is some white dude with a beard floating on a cloud. And anytime that image is presented differently, it's seen as cultish.

You talk about Hindu gods with their colorful clothing and multi-arm bodies, or Saraswati the goddess of knowledge or Krishna with his blue skin.

I mean, that because of just how deeply rooted our Christian impression or modern Christian impression, I should clarify of God is, those depictions seem weird. And that's your word.

Dr. Khyati Joshi:

Right, right. And I think that they appear as cultish as you said, they appear as cartoons. And what happens is they're so weird, they're seen as so outlandish. “Well, hey, we can make fun of them. Oh, they can't be real. Oh, this isn't something sacred.”

I mean, I grew up some days fasting on Thursdays because that's the day of Saraswati, the goddess of knowledge. And my mom was like, “You need all the help you can get.”

But what does that do to a kid when you're told in your family this is something to be revered, and then you go to school or you're in outside in the world and it's something being made fun of?

And that's difficult for a teenager or young adult and child to reconcile. And it ends up resulting in some kids just saying, “Hey, Hinduism is just a little too weird for me.”

It can lead people down that path. It can also lead people down the path of saying, “You know what, I am tired of being made fun of. I am going to need to learn about my faith and make sure I can explain it and figure out what it is that I believe.”

But going back to your original question, what we have to really understand about each other's faiths is that if it seems so different, then hopefully in your mind that can trigger, “Oh, well, it’s something I should learn about. It seems so different because I haven't encountered it.”

Because if you encounter it, the more and more you encounter it, the less different and weird it seems.

Ken Harbaugh:

You're describing really hurtful and deeply rooted cultural biases. But they express themselves in the law as well. There are legal structures that enshrine these biases.

Can you talk about the 10 commandment wars or the school prayer wars, which we've by no means figured out, but those are examples of legal structures trying to codify Christian bias.

Dr. Khyati Joshi:

Yeah. So, gosh, we could spend the rest of the time on just one of those.

So, let's take the 10 Commandments. When you're part of the majority group and something is important to you, it's very easy to think, “Well, this kind of can apply to everybody.”

And so, one of the examples I have in the book is from Governor Sonny Perdue of Georgia, who talked about, “Well, the 10 Commandments apply to everyone.”

And I think there's a lot of people out there who are like, “No, these are just rules that civil society should follow.” But when you're part of the dominant group, it's easy to see that.

One of the commandments is thou shall not pray to another God. Like so you're telling me 10 Commandments are part of US structure, and then we're also saying we're a religiously pluralistic democracy. Of course, some don't want that.

So, we have to understand, no, it doesn't apply to everybody, but you might think that. Same with prayer.

And you know what the interesting thing about prayer in public schools is? So, prayer was in schools, because our public schools come out of the common school movement, which comes out of religious schooling in this country.

And so, in the ‘50s and ‘60s, when we had two Supreme court cases (well, two big cases) that took prayer out of school, the country understood that government took religion out of schools.

And I would say that part of conservative Christian America kept saying for decades that government was taking religion out of schools. And it wasn't. In fact, Justice Tom Clark in the Abington v. Schempp decision in 1963 was very clear saying that no one's education is complete without the study of religion.

But we have forgotten about that. And our public schools did take religion out unfortunately, when government was saying we needed to take prayer out of schools.

And I still encounter, and for the last 25 years, I've been teaching about religion in schools with all the other topics I teach about. And I always encounter my public school teacher saying, “Professor Joshi, we can't talk about religion.”

And I'm like, “No, no, no. You can. You can teach about it. You're not supposed to preach about it, but you can teach about it.”

And so, we really actually need to get back, Ken. We're going to have to teach about religion. I need to know about Christianity. I need to know what it's about.

Because I'll tell you, growing up, until I got to Emory University and I took a class on the life of Jesus, the only thing I knew was that I was damned going to hell because I did not accept Christ as my Lord and personal savior. Like that's not okay.

Ken Harbaugh:

Are there other countries, other societies that do it better? I mean, I'm a cheerleader for the US but I'm always willing to learn from others. Where can we look to get inspiration and guidance for how to build this pluralistic approach.

Dr. Khyati Joshi:

That's a good question. And let me say that I'm a cheerleader for the US too. It's why I wrote a book like this. It's why I teach what I teach, because I believe in the founding principles of this country.

For me then, a whole idea of creating a more perfect union is at the center of everything that I do. And I'm very proud and I'm thankful that my parents immigrated to this country in 1971, and I came over with them as an 18-month-old.

I'm also very fortunate that my parents sent me back to India all the time. And I'm fluent in my language and my home language. And I'm very proud to be Indian and Indian American.

I think there are other countries, there are some things that we could really learn from.

So, for example, in Canada, they have a whole federal policy on multiculturalism that affects the day-to-day in Canada in a different way than here in the United States we do things. Certain holidays are recognized, certain topics are taught in school that are not always taught in our country.

Interestingly enough, when I started my career about 25 years ago, I thought that India could be a very interesting place to learn about religious pluralism. In India, we have had … I will talk about India and use we and I will talk about the United States and use we, because I consider myself to be part of both.

And in India, we have national holidays across faiths. So, Christmas is a national holiday in India, and so is Diwali, and so is Holy and so is Good Friday. Many different religions are recognized in India, and I think that that's something the United States could learn from.

I will also say that currently, in India, just like we have a problem in the United States with white Christian nationalism, India has a problem with Hindu nationalism.

Ken Harbaugh:

I'm glad you brought that up because in terms of learning from other country, the example of Modi and India and Hindu nationalism is especially scary for me because it's kind of a glimpse into what America's future might be if Christian nationalism, indeed co-ops a major American political party, if that political party regains the White House and retakes the Senate.

I mean, that's a scary picture for me. And I would love your thoughts on it as someone who has one foot in two different cultures that can inform each other.

Dr. Khyati Joshi:

Yeah, it's not a place of study for me. I can't really comment on it the way I can on white Christian privilege. I'm an academic who studied that. But as an everyday person who lives Christian privilege here, I also know, for example, in India, I have Hindu privilege.

United States and India are our two big secular democracies. So, actually, that's the perfect analogy to make. And my last name gives away that I'm Hindu. It also gives away what cast I am.

And so, I know that when I walk the streets in India, it's different for me than it is for those who are Muslim, for those who are Christian and Sikh and other faiths.

So, it is something that makes me very sad because you have … how do I put this? You have sometimes more kind of in depth and longstanding relationships between different religious communities in India that I haven't always necessarily seen in this country, but some of those relationships are hanging on by a thread.

And when those of us who talk about Hindu nationalism talk about it, we're immediately branded as not loving India the way that I've been branded not loving America, and told to go back to where you come from.

So, there's lots and lots of parallels there, but it is unfortunately scary to see what is going on in India because also it does offer a different model of pluralism. It really does, but it's very much in peril.

Ken Harbaugh:

Well, it's also a portent of what might happen in America. And that's what I want to get at there. Obviously many things that distinguish Hinduism from Christianity. One of the most profound in my experience though, is this Christian persecution complex.

And obviously that's foundational. That's how the religion started. But you see it gaining such momentum in America today, this idea, which is shouted from the pulpit in mega churches and by leading supposedly Christian politicians that their faith, our faith (I grew up Christian) is under attack.

And this persecution complex is just not only weird to me when coming from a majority entrenched, powerful demographic, it's really dangerous.

Dr. Khyati Joshi:

Yeah, it is. And the foundation of it is something real. Are Christians discriminated against in this country from time to time? Yeah.

I will say particularly in academia, in universities and colleges, that to be Christian, it can be looked down upon. To be religious of any kind, but particularly Christian, let's be clear.

But you can be discriminated against. You can have personally faced discrimination. And at the same time, you have to be able to see the way society has been built for Christians.

Now, that is, if I'm speaking to somebody who is open-minded. The folks that you're referring to, I mean, they have an agenda. They want to take something that's real and then twist it for their use.

And the question is, I wrote this book, and the majority of the way or place I spend my energies, Ken, is talking to folks who are willing to consider the possibilities.

I am not interested in putting forth my energy to try to convince somebody who lives by the word of the pastor that you are potentially describing. They're not going to hear me. But you know what? They might listen to you. They might listen to you.

And so, you have such an important role, and it's really actually one of the reasons why I was like, yes, I would love to be on here because I can write this book, I can write 20 other books, I can have these conversations perhaps into my next lifetime, and I might do that.

But it will take someone like you having these conversations with folks to really help us make change.

Ken Harbaugh:

When you see people like the former president Donald Trump and his acolytes making the Christian nationalist argument, making the case that they're defending Christianity the same way they say Vladimir Putin is defending Christianity.

How do you react as a scholar, as a person who has studied the religious history of Christianity and apply it to this incredibly cynical moment we're in now?

Dr. Khyati Joshi:

Well, where I get very angry as a scholar is again, if we had more people know the religious history of this country, the real true religious history of this country, we wouldn't have so many people just following the former president.

And so, that's why we've got to do something about our education system. We have got to talk about religion in schools. Not prayer, not devotional reading, but religion.

Sometimes it surprises people, but I am a huge advocate of religion in public schools. We've got to teach it. You can legally have a high school class on the Bible is literature. I have no problem with that.

What I would like to see is religious texts in a world literature class. That's one of the things we've got to do.

I'll say also as a scholar and as a everyday American, it infuriates me the way that the former president and those who follow him have twisted Christianity. It absolutely infuriates me.

Every religion, if you will, in everyday speak, has good, and every religion has bad. And it really does bother me.

I mean, Christianity has been also the foundation for social justice. It has provided people solace when there was nothing else. And that gets overshadowed. Or that's not even talked about at all.

Which is one of the reasons why we've got to kind of change the discussion. We've got to reclaim what are the moral questions in our country?

Ken Harbaugh:

How do you explain the rise of this militant brand of Christianity that recasts Jesus, the inventor of Christianity … someone's going to get really mad at me for phrasing it that way. But that recast Jesus, not as someone interested in social justice and equality but as a warrior prophet.

If we can find it, I really want to insert in here a clip from the Stronger Men's Conference in Kansas City, Missouri, where Josh Hawley launched his book about manhood that featured a bunch of evangelists and opened with a tank crushing cars driven by either a Jesus or Chuck Norris lookalike, literally shooting UZIs into the air with flamethrowers going off to the side.

How did we get to this moment where Jesus and Trump are conflated, and they're both holding guns and vanquishing their enemies,

Dr. Khyati Joshi:

Right. Well, I think it's two big forces. Number one, the change of demographics in this country that we can trace back to the Immigration Act of 1965, the Immigration and Nationality Act, which opened our doors. Our immigration doors had effectively been shut between 1924 and 1965.

When I'm teaching about this to my students, I always say, Lady Liberty's torch should have been put behind her back between 1924 and ‘65. There were a few groups that were allowed in, there were a few exceptions, but for the most part, the doors were shut.

In ‘65, President Johnson signed the act into law saying that every nation in the world could send people to the United States. And that what the quotas that had been established in 1920s, he said was not okay, and they were wrong and this was a way to remedy that.

He also, said in his speech at the signing, that, “You know what? We don't think this law is really going to do a whole lot, but it's the right thing to do.”

Well, let me tell you something, Ken. They had no idea. He and the Congress had no idea how that law would literally change the complexion of this country.

And so, you not only had people from all over the world coming, but then in 1967, you have the Supreme Court case Loving v. Virginia that finally said, people of color and white folks can marry. So, then that happened. And ‘64, we had been given civil rights-

Ken Harbaugh:

Can we just asterisk that that was unbelievably recently in American history, that people who loved each other are actually allowed to marry. There's great film on that for those who are interested. But the case itself is unbelievably compelling and far too recent.

Dr. Khyati Joshi:

Yes, and actually, I will say there are all kinds of books, including children's books on it. And it's a wonderful story of Richard and Mildred Loving.

But all of these things that happened in the ‘60s, it usually takes us a generation to see the fruits of legislation passed.

And so, we really started seeing a change of demographics because of people coming to this country, and then people becoming citizens, and then sponsoring relatives. I mean, this is my story. My parents and I immigrated because of the Immigration Act of ‘65.

And so, I think those who were here, let's say white Christian America and specific section of white Christian America, were not ready for this change of demographics.

And the second thing is the election of President Obama. I think it was just too much for parts of this country to put their faith in the leader who was a black man. They just couldn't do it. It was just beyond reality for them.

And then the former president had been stirring the pot ever since President Obama was in office from the get-go.

The whole Birther Movement and him saying, “Wait a minute, where was President Obama born? And I don't think he was born in Hawaii. And by the way, look at who his father is. Oh, and then wait a minute, he lived in Southeast Asia. This was too much.”

I mean, he brought all these threads together and it was too much for people to be like, “No, there's no way this guy could be president.” And so, it was concerted effort to de-legitimize him from the very beginning.

So, the two factors, the changing complexion of this country, along with the election of Barack Obama.

Ken Harbaugh:

Right. We're teasing out I think a fascinating intersection, and I want to be explicit about it. When I see the Republican Party today, at least elements of the Republican party (dominant elements), deploying Christianity as a way to answer this terrifying increase in racial diversity that the country is experiencing. I'm projecting terrifying on them. I think America is much better for it.

But the same reaction and the motivations that prompt that reaction among whites who are afraid that the country is not going to look like what it did pre 1965, seems to be animating Christians to react in the same way. And those threads are intersecting, they're feeding off of each other.

And you've talked about Christianity and the construction of whiteness. And I think it all comes together in this political moment.

Dr. Khyati Joshi:

Yeah. I mean, I think what we have to understand is that if somebody … this can go back to thinking about it. If you have a five-year-old child, and this child is playing with this toy, and then all of a sudden that toy is taken away, the child is upset. This is their toy, this is what they like.

This is a little bit of what has happened in the United States with Christians and the increasing racial ethnic and religious diversity and the way that schools and local townships have dealt with things.

For example, every December, there's always a story. Well, we had the nativity. We had the crash up at City Hall.

And now, “Oh, well, we used to do it, it was part of tradition, but now, we're no longer allowed to do it because the Jewish population complained.” Or the Hindu population is saying, “Wait a minute, but we also need to do this.”

And unfortunately, those in power also didn't get religion when they were growing up because of it was learning about religion has not been part of public education for the most part.

And so, what is the answer? With increasing religious diversity, let's not talk about religion. Let's take religion away.

And so, on a certain level, those who are white and Christian who've been in this country for generations are like, “Wait a minute, our toys …”

And I don't mean to make an analogy. I mean, toys are very important to kids. Religion is very important to kids. I'm not trying to trivialize religion here, I want to make that clear.

But this idea of something important to you being taken away, and then how you feel about that is what's really at the heart of what's going on.

And then a certain segment of the Republican party is drawing on that fear. And they're doing it, they're very good at it. They're very, very good at it. And they're drawing on that fear that who I am, and what I am, and what I believe in is being taken away, and it's being given to other folks.

Ken Harbaugh:

Is it really being taken away though? Can we address the foundational premise of this persecution argument of this grievance?

Every time I hear the war on Christmas refrain around the holidays, I roll my eyes because I can't get away from the candy canes and the Christmas trees and everything else.

That argument, I think is being deployed cynically. I guess I want you to address that first and then would love your insight into what the public square should look like.

Because I think there is a place for the nativity there, there's also a place for the menorah and everything else. But let's tackle the one thing at a time. Is the toy really being taken away?

Dr. Khyati Joshi:

So, let's go with one specific piece of Christmas. And it's the use of Merry Christmas versus Happy Holidays because I think that's a rallying cry. I see all the stickers. And on cars, “Put the Christ back in Christmas.”

And I don't blame them. I think that the commercialization of Christmas, the whole issue of commodification of gifts, I mean, that's part of our capitalist society, unfortunately. And that has taken away some of the sacred peace for those who believe and for those who celebrate Christmas in a spiritual way as different than a cultural way.

Ken Harbaugh:

But that's not government. And it's certainly not minority religions tearing down nativity scenes.

Dr. Khyati Joshi:

No. But it is again, a place where folks can get a handle on and say, “Hey, we used to say Merry Christmas. And now, because of these people, we're having to say Happy Holidays. And that does not convey the same as a Merry Christmas.”

And I'm here to say, I agree with them. I'm in favor of saying Merry Christmas. And part of the fear people have around saying it is, oh my God, they don't want to offend somebody.

Okay, I'm not talking about the person at the Gap saying Merry Christmas to people and trying to figure it out. But people in your life, in your kind of primary social circle, your colleagues at work, like we should have a sense of who they're, what they believe.

I should be able to know that my dean is a Christian, and I can wish her a Merry Christmas. I should know also, if my associate dean is Jewish, and I don't wish her a Merry Christmas.

But we have forgotten that, and we don't go there. And what I'm saying is we need to go there.

I am an advocate of saying Merry Christmas. And that means you need to know when to wish me a happy Diwali. You need to know when Yom Kippur is, and to know not to say have a happy Yoon Kippur, because it is a solemn day of commemoration. So, these are the basics.

There is going to be we need religious literacy. We need religious literacy.

So, the answer to, “Hey, well, no, we're not talking about Christmas. We're calling it Happy Holidays. Oh, there used to be a Christmas party, but now, it's a holiday party.” So, people feel their religion is not taken seriously.

So, the answer to increasing religious diversity is not less religion, because we have ample data that shows that isn't working.

Ken Harbaugh:

We do. We see it. We see it everywhere around us.

Alright. Last question, a practical one. What should our town public square look like?

Dr. Khyati Joshi:

That's a really good question. The Town Square needs to be intentionally created, if you will, so that it brings in the faiths and none of the communities that it represents. So, that's the first place to start, is that people should see themselves reflected in their community.

And so, I'm not saying that that means just because there might be a church near the town square that all of a sudden you need to erect a Hindu temple there. But there have been times where temples and mosques, communities have tried to build them, and then folks say, “No, that's not okay.”

We need to allow for these structures in our communities. We need to say, we would like to have a crush, and what should we do so that our other communities feel represented?

So, one of the things they can do is have a diva lighting ceremony, which a lot of towns across the country have started doing during Diwali.

Everything doesn't need to happen in December. Let's be clear. Not the world's religious holidays happen in December. And in fact, if you're trying to put everything into December, it's still the Christianization of these holidays.

So, let's commemorate and celebrate when they happen, which is then also means having the nativity out in December.

Ken Harbaugh:

What's glaringly obvious to me is that that approach makes life richer and more interesting and doesn't infringe on anyone's freedoms.

And I think the reaction from those who say that that is an infringement tells you everything you need to know about them. I'm afraid we're going to see a lot of that in 2024.

But I want to live in a world where every few weeks, there's another event at the Public Town Square exposing us to the diversity in our communities.

Dr. Khyati Joshi:

Yeah. And I think as long as you keep working for it, and I keep working for it, and your listeners do what they can, we can succeed. But we have our work cut out for us.

Ken Harbaugh:

Well, thank you so much, Khyati. That was a lot of fun. We should meet up again around the holidays. I would love to check back in with you.

Dr. Khyati Joshi:

Sounds good. Thanks, Ken.

Ken Harbaugh:

Thanks again to Khyati for joining me. Make sure to check out her book, White Christian Privilege.

Thanks for listening to Burn the Boats. If you have any feedback, please email the team at [email protected]. We're always looking to improve the show.

For updates and more, follow us on Twitter @Team_Harbaugh. And if you enjoyed this episode, don't forget to rate and review.

Burn the Boats is a production of Evergreen Podcasts. Our producer is Declan Rohrs and Sean Rule-Hoffman is our audio engineer. Special thanks to Evergreen executive producers Joan Andrews, Michael DeAloia, and David Moss.

I'm Ken Harbaugh and this is Burn the Boats, a podcast about big decisions.

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