Joe Walsh: SCOTUS Immunity ruling

Ken Harbaugh:

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Joe Walsh:

I think if Trump hypothetically, were going tomorrow and Republican voters had to pick a nominee, this thing we call Trumpism MAGA as a radicalized mindset is now the animating force in the party. MAGA is not a wing, MAGA is my fucking former party. And so, I think the nominee would be the Trumpiest guy they could pick.

Ken Harbaugh:

I'm Ken Harbaugh and this is Burn the Boats, a podcast where experts and change makers share their thoughts on the most pressing issues of the day. Those of you who watch this show regularly know that it's not an angry show, but today I'm angry and I wanted to talk to someone who shares my outrage at what is happening.

And no one does righteous indignation better than Joe Walsh. Joe, that's all the introduction you're going to get. I'm pretty sure everyone knows who you are, and I actually don't have interview notes today.

Joe Walsh:

Fuck that.

Ken Harbaugh:

Yeah, F that. I want your take on what the Supreme Court just did, how Trump will take advantage of it, what we have to do to push back. And I'm going to go ahead and put the presumptive, explicit rating on this show. So, if f-bombs offend anyone, maybe don't watch this one. Joe, it's all yours. What the hell is going on?

Joe Walsh:

My friend, thanks for all you do and it's damn good to be with you. We got to fucking wake up. I've been saying this from day one, we can't normalize Donald Trump. That debate last week, alright, “How did Trump do? What was his strategy? Who's going to be his VP pick?” I don't give a flying fuck about any of that shit.

We're three and a half years removed from the only American president who lost an election and refused to concede. I mean, Ken, stop there. 248 years, we've never had a president lose an election and not concede and not participate in the peaceful transfer of power.

Stop there. That alone should be disqualifying. That alone should make Donald Trump a pariah and you and I haven't even gotten into the fact that he then tried to overthrow the election. That alone should be it.

We should be speaking about nothing else, but that. He didn't have the balls, the decency, or the love of country to concede when he lost, that should be it.

Ken Harbaugh:

Speaking of normalizing Trump, the New York Times just published an editorial calling on Biden to drop out when he's running against someone who tried to undermine democracy, where's that editorial?

Where are the editorials calling on Trump to drop out? I think the Philly Inquirer might have done one, but we have entered this twilight zone where that's somehow okay. I don't get it.

Joe Walsh:

Well, I'm with you. I get it in this respect and you fire back at me because maybe you'll disagree with me. Trump's Trump, he's utterly unfit, the New York Times knows that, my former party, I come from MAGA, they'll never ask him to step down. They'll never stand against him because he is a cult leader.

I think the New York Times and others, plenty on our side who don't want Trump in the White House have been public about our concerns about Joe Biden. Look, if Biden's the nominee, I'll run through a fucking wall to get him elected if he stays the nominee.

I think the concern is this, “Oh my God, Donald Trump can't win.” I'm trying to spin it for the New York Times. Joe Biden is a flawed nominee if Biden's a nominee, Trump might win. So, I think that's where a lot of this consternation and fear is coming from.

Ken, to me it's easy, we're all in this together. You and I and everybody who opposes Trump will support whoever the Democratic nominee is. So, it doesn't matter to me who the nominee is. It doesn't matter to me what that name is. I'm all in with a Democratic nominee.

But I think the fear is that maybe not everybody thinks like you and I do. And that debate are undecided voters going to vote for the asshole because they're afraid Biden's too old. I worry about that.

Ken Harbaugh:

Well, in the column of reasons why Trump cannot be allowed to win, we have one more entry, which is this Supreme Court decision that grants broad presidential immunity for just about anything done as unofficial act. I mean, this is nightmare fuel. People are calling this the death squad ruling.

Joe Walsh:

It takes a big, big step toward turning an American president into a king. I mean, Ken, you and I speak the same language. We come from different political places, but I'm not New York Times fancy talk. That ruling turns a president into a fucking king. We don't have kings in this country.

Again, just a reminder, and I know Joe Biden came out with a very good statement last night. I wish he had taken questions, but a very good statement. “This is just a reminder of what this election has always been about, democracy. It's not about the price of bread. It's not about the price of gas. It's not about the border. It's not about crime on our streets, it's about preserving democracy.”

Trump is a threat and the Supreme Court yesterday made absolutely clear that they're a threat too in turning this thing into kind of a dictatorship.

Ken Harbaugh:

Yeah. I mean, this is what you get when you give Trump that many Supreme Court nominees, and I want to be abundantly clear about something. I suspect you feel the same way. This is not a criticism of the judicial system, which needs to have the legitimacy to stand up to the other two branches.

This is a criticism of, in this case, six justices who abuse their power, who I would argue misled the American people. We have clips of Alito and Kavanaugh and Roberts saying during their confirmation proceedings that no one is above the law. That principle is sacrosanct in our constitutional order.

And yet here they go authoring this decision that says when it's their guy, he's above the law if he does something in his official capacity.

Joe Walsh:

So, Ken, as you know, I'm a conservative and I've always … Antonin Scalia was my ideal Supreme Court justice back in the day. I don't think he would've supported this ruling today because to your point, I've always kind of believed in an originalist court, a court that does its best to interpret what our founding documents meant.

But to your point, this court has moved beyond conservative and originalist, they are activists. They are activists’ justices trying to turn America into — look, I'll say it because I come from it, a Christian theocracy.

I hear this shit from my former Republican colleagues in the house. They're very open about what they want America to be a Christian theocracy that is anathema to America. Now they have a Supreme court that's right there with them, scary.

Ken Harbaugh:

Well, we have actual audio tapes of Alito agreeing with someone who poses this question to them. “How do we reconcile in a society that has these fundamentally different views?” And he’s basically answer is, “You don't reconcile.”

Which is fine if you're the head of the Heritage Foundation and your job is advocacy. It's not okay if you are a justice on the Supreme Court, you need to rise above that. But the court has become so politicized by how its justices are chosen, how they're vetted, how they're confirmed that it is undermining its own legitimacy in very dangerous ways.

Joe Walsh:

Ken, you know what it's become, the court's become radicalized. And it's become radicalized like I've said now for years, my former political party has become radicalized and you and I have talked about this. And I was on your show a couple years ago, apologizing for the role that I played in helping to radicalize Republican voters.

And that's what we're seeing right now. They've given up on democracy. They embrace authoritarianism. They want to destroy people who disagree with them. That's where my former party is right now. Trump is the manifestation of this.

But my God, and as you know well from your background, know your enemy and right now, this mindset is our enemy because this is not what America is. I always go after Trump hard. I try not to go after Trump's supporters hard because I was a Trump supporter, but we have to call them out for what they've become.

Ken Harbaugh:

The party to which you formerly belonged is having a closed-door session coming up to come up with its platform. But the RNC chair has already announced that the entire purpose of today's Republican party of every dollar that goes into the RNC is to support Donald Trump in any way that he demands that support.

Whether that's paying his legal bills, whether that's going after his enemies. I mean, that is the Banana Republic level corruption when it comes to how political parties operate.

Joe Walsh:

And Ken, that is a cult. Remember in 2020, for the very first time in Republican history, I think in party history, the party did not have a platform. A platform right is, as you said, a platform is where we are, where we standing on the issues. This is what we stand for. This is what we believe.

For the first time in history, the Republican Party said, “We will not put forth a platform. Our only agenda is the reelection of Donald Trump.” I primaried Trump in 2020. The minute I got in, within two weeks, they canceled primaries in 20 states all to protect him. It's not a party. It's a full-on cult now.

Ken Harbaugh:

Does this burnout, because I agree with you, and I've gone back and forth and back and forth on this idea of Trump as the symptom or the cause. But when you describe it as a cult and more specifically a cult of personality, he's not just a symptom. He is a singular figure in American history.

And I have to believe, and I think I'm talking to someone who has particular sympathies for Republican voters that absent Trump, a lot of this does burn out. He has a unique ability to agitate and provoke Republican voters.

I can't think of anyone else in the party that people would charge the Capitol for, that people would break glass for, go to jail for. They're not going to do that for Ron DeSantis. They're not going to do that for Nikki Haley.

Trump is a singular figure, and he has to be defeated and humiliated and relegated to the dustbin of history.

Joe Walsh:

I agree with you to a point and I'm going to ask you a question. If Trump died in his sleep tonight, who would the Republicans put up as their nominee? If Republican voters tomorrow had to vote for a new nominee, who would it be?

Ken Harbaugh:

Well, I will answer that in a couple of ways. There are the Trump avatars. There are a couple who come close, and Tucker Carlson is probably the closest person to be able to harness that MAGA hate-filled energy.

But I feel like the hypothetical demise of Trump might finally be the opening that the cooler heads would need to move on and elevate someone like Nikki Haley.

Because I just think looking at those Trump rallies that absent Trump, a lot of that fire dies out and they're not going to get excited even about someone like Tucker Carlson and it leaves a much more open field. How do you respond to that?

Joe Walsh:

So, this is where you and I disagree. I think if Trump hypothetically were gone tomorrow and Republican voters had to pick a nominee, this thing we call Trumpism MAGA, there is something unique about Trump as the original cult leader, I agree with that. But Trumpism and MAGA as a radicalized mindset is now the animating force in the party.

MAGA is not a wing, MAGA is my fucking former party. And so, I think the nominee would be the Trumpiest guy they could pick. DeSantis has zero personality, but he's MAGA. I could see a Ted Cruz, I could see a Don Jr, I could see a Tucker Carlson, it would be someone like that.

Point being, they wouldn't go to a Nikki Haley or a Mitt Romney, those days are done. I think this party, my former party is on the Trumpism MAGA road. I don't think it gets off the road. I think it's an older white party and eventually it kind of dies itself off unless it can replace its numbers. But I don't see that happen.

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Well, that demographic, actuarial reality is actually our best hope because everything the Republican Party is doing today is a nod towards its demographic inevitability and the eventual decline it has to face its attacks on immigrants and women and communities of color and the LGBTQ community, none of these are evidence of a party that wants to grow or expand. It's a party of revanchism and entrenching an ideology and that is not sustainable.

Joe Walsh:

Completely agree brother, with every word you said, I'll make one caveat though. I do believe the Republican Party is shrinking and becoming a really strong regional rural party. But the only caveat to that Ken, is how elitist, don't get mad at me, but fire at me if you want. How elitist, the Democratic Party and out of touch the Democratic Party continues to get.

Weirdly, working-class people without a college degree have been moving toward the Republican party. Even brown and black voters, the Latino, especially Latino men without a college degree have been moving to the Republican party. I think because they — not I think I know because they tell me they believe the Democratic Party is out of touch.

And so, what we've seen is we've seen college educated women moving to the Democratic Party. So, the only thing that could prop the Republican party up for a while is if the Democratic Party doesn't kind of get back in touch with working class white, brown and black folk and give demagogues like Trump and the others a chance to appeal to these working-class voters. Does that make sense?

Ken Harbaugh:

It makes sense and I think you're partly right and don't get me started on out of touch post on elites. I swim in that as a veteran going to Yale Law School. I mean, I brought a measure of real-world perspective that was not welcome at an institution like that, although valued my time there and still proud to call myself a Yale grad.

But I think we have to understand your observation in the context of Trump winning votes of people who made over a hundred thousand dollars. That was the only economic group that he won outright.

I think we have to understand the shift of minorities towards Trump in economic terms. I mean, inflation hits lower income brackets hardest, and there is justifiable anger out there about the price of things.

And I think it's inevitable that that is going to be reflected in disenchantment with the party that is in power, at least in the White House. I think it's complicated, but ultimately, I think the answer is better messaging.

Because when you look at actual democratic policies, things like the Inflation Reduction Act, the CHIPS Act, the incredible bipartisan bills that this President Biden has been able to push through an incredibly divided congress, they help the communities that we're talking about.

We just haven't gotten that message out. We're terrible at being on the same page in terms of talking points.

Joe Walsh:

Spot on man. Better messaging, but also better messengers. Again, this is what's so sad about Biden because, and I say this as someone who's not a Democrat, Biden has had a hell of a four years, a hell of a record. He’s done a lot. 60% of a president's job is communication and he just hasn't been able to communicate that.

The other point I'd make is I want to see Democrats who are fighters. I want to see Democrats who are blue collar men and women who roll up their fucking sleeves and can sit at a bar and talk to an average guy about real concerns. I think those kinds of messengers, the Democratic Party needs more of.

Ken Harbaugh:

Yeah. We need a lot more of them. I think we're beginning to get them, if you look at the bench, the Democratic bench, especially as compared to the Republican bench, I'll take our bench any day. I just talked to a Democratic candidate from rural Ohio, Michael Kripchak, who ran in a district that Trump won by over 30 points and he lost by single digits in a special election.

Air Force vet, salt of the earth guy maybe I'll repost the link because he's running again in November. This was a special election for a vacated seat, we've got folks like that. And look at the last round of primaries and who won on the Democratic side, like in New York, who won those primaries the middle of the road.

I would argue, salt of the earth folks who are able to get out there and communicate versus the Republican side where Lauren Boebert cruised to being renominated. The Republican Party is not moderating in this environment, in the way the Democratic Party is.

Joe Walsh:

No, and that's a really important distinction. And we said it a minute ago, MAGA is the party now, it's mainstream Republican, it's not a wing. You've got some loony folks on your far left, but they are still on the far left. They're on the fringe. The bulk of the Democratic party is still good center, left center shits, left ass solutions. That's a big difference.

And the other big difference is MAGA is fully anti-democracy. I think the left is wacko on a number of issues, but the left believes in democracy, big difference.

Ken Harbaugh:

The critical difference, you've said this before, but I've become a single issue voter on this because as much as I care about reproductive rights, as much as I care about common sense, gun reform, the kinds of things you and Fred, a good friend of mine Fred Guttenberg talk about all the time, as important as those are, we don't get to have those debates if we lose the democracy.

Joe Walsh:

Bingo. And Ken, you're so right. You're so right, every day preach that and think about this, maybe you're bothered by this open public discussion about should Biden stay or step aside since the debate, I don't know, and I've been very public about it.

I think it's kind of healthy. I think it's a sign of a healthy political party. You know, and I know the Republican Party would never have a public discussion about the fitness of their leader. So, that's cultish behavior.

This is healthy shit. Maybe it's a little too out in the open, I don't care. But this is a sign of a healthy party publicly questioning, “Come on, we love Joe, but is he fit?” You'll never see that on the other side and they know he's not fit

Ken Harbaugh:

Anyone who does suggest that is excommunicated. And I choose that word intentionally because an excommunication is a religious act and this is what happens in a cult when you threaten the theocratic order, when you undermine the dogma, which revolves now around Trump, you are excommunicated and condemned.

Joe Walsh:

Well, and that's why Ken talking about the future of the Republican party, I was excommunicated a few years ago, my friend Adam Kinzinger has been excommunicated. I don't believe there's any way in my lifetime or Adam's lifetime that he or I could ever win a Republican primary again, because we're so publicly outspoken against Trump. So, I don't think that we’ll ever, ever be accepted back in that party.

Ken Harbaugh:

No, I think you're probably right. Do you subscribe to the prescription for a Republican party, reformation, renewal, whatever that requires it to be first destroyed, annihilated at the polls to face reality and resurrect itself or can something short of that reform this party?

Joe Walsh:

No, I think it's done Ken. I'm of the school that this party can't be fixed and it can't be reformed. The only, only, only possible solution savior for it is a complete spanking at the polls, election cycle after election cycle. I think it will take a few.

If Trump was utterly destroyed this year and then MAGA was utterly destroyed in 2026, you might begin to see a real awakening. But short of that, no, I think it's on the path it's on and I do think these are unprecedented times. I wouldn't be surprised if there's a brand new center right party in the next two to four years.

Ken Harbaugh:

How do we make the next four months about Trump? How do we make this election a referendum, not just a referendum on Trump, but a warning about what would happen if he gets power again, not just with all of his promises for vengeance, but with the new powers he's now been granted by the Supreme Court decision.

Joe Walsh:

I think you answered that my good friend a few minutes ago when you said this election should only and all be about democracy, saving democracy, defending democracy, defending what this country is because Trump's the antithesis of all that. He's the threat to all of that.

So, I think that's where we all have to put our focus and explain and show what that means. Our democracy is on the line. And to Biden's credit Ken, he was advised in 2022, stop that whole threat to democracy shit.

And Joe Biden said, “No, I'm going to focus on it.” And it helped prevent a red wave. I think Biden needs to do that, assuming he's still the nominee. I think all the rest of us need to do that because Trump's the threat to it.

Ken Harbaugh:

Do you worry about violence between now and the election and after the election as well?

Joe Walsh:

Daily, every single day, yes. I worried about it in 2020, I'm not alone in that. We saw January 6th coming, months before January 6th, the stuff I would hear from Trump supporters on a daily basis. The stuff I hear from Trump supporters now on a daily basis tells me that America ought to wake up. It's there again and it's a real threat.

Ken Harbaugh:

How do you stay connected with that movement? You talk about hearing from Trump supporters. I have lost a lot of friends because of Trump and the political schism he has introduced to our society. How have you maintained those connections in this environment?

Joe Walsh:

Well, Ken, it's only because of my unique place. The unique journey I've been on. I mean, I come from their world so I was in their family. They were my family members. They were my supporters. I left because of Trump.

But because I come from them and they know I'm not a liberal, they know I'm not a Democrat, they know I'm still a tea party conservative, they will engage with me. And Ken, I've told you before, because I helped to inflame them as a reformed MAGA gang banger, it's my job.

It's my job to try to pull some of them out of the cult. I'm able to reach a few on a regular basis, but the vast majority know. But they give me the time of day because they know I come from their world.

Ken Harbaugh:

What moves them? And I'm going to make this a little easier for you and giving you an example from my world in what has just enough of an impact on the Trump loyalists to get them to think twice maybe about their vote and it's Trump's comments about veterans. That's what I go to.

That's what I go to when talking to people in my family, in my immediate circle of friends who still support the former president. I talk about the buddies I lost overseas, who he has called losers. I talk about my service and the fact that it did not make me a sucker that seems to work. What do you bring to the fight?

Joe Walsh:

In addition to that, Ken, because you're right, that resonates. The two or three things I find that resonate with these folks, again, I consider them my former brothers and sisters, is Trump lies to them all the time and you don't like or respect someone who you constantly lie to.

And so, when I get into a real conversation with them and I show them evidence of Donald Trump lying to them all the time, it makes them uncomfortable. That's one thing that really bothers them.

The other thing that makes them really question supporting him is you mean he is a complete victim? You believe in individual responsibility, John, I'll say, that black kid on the south side of Chicago who pulled a gun and shot somebody, he's responsible for what he did and yeah, yeah, yeah. Well, why do you believe an individual responsibility with everybody but Trump?

Are you telling me he's not responsible for anything he's done? None of these indictments that begins to make them uncomfortable. The final thing I'd say, Ken, is most of them will still tell me the 2020 election was stolen, most of them will.

But when I tell them that Trump is out there right now, again before the election, right now saying it's going to be stolen again, weirdly, I found that that bothers them. They don't like him saying that stuff before the election. That gets them thinking.

Ken Harbaugh:

That is great “ammo,” we disavow violence in all forms, and I'm glad you shared it. I will deploy some of it and see how it works with the folks I know. Joe, where can folks find White Flag? Where can they find you online?

Joe Walsh:

White Flag with Joe Walsh is the podcast wherever you watch or listen to podcasts, follow me on Twitter at WalshFreedom. Ken, you're the best brother. Keep doing what you do.

Ken Harbaugh:

You too. Thanks Joe. Great talking to you as always.

Joe Walsh:

Thanks man.

Ken Harbaugh:

Thanks for listening to Burn the Boats. If you have any feedback, please email the team at [email protected], we're always looking to improve the show.

For updates and more follow us on Twitter at Team_Harbaugh. And if you enjoyed this episode, don't forget to rate and review.

Burn the Boats is a production of Evergreen Podcasts. Our producer is Declan Rohrs and Sean Rule-Hoffman is our audio engineer. Special thanks to Evergreen executive producers Joan Andrews, Michael DeAloia and David Moss. I'm Ken Harbaugh and this is Burn the Boats, a podcast about big decisions.