Lev Parnas: Leaving the Cult of Trump

Ken Harbaugh:

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Lev Parnas:

It's like being a drug addict. Being in a cult is like being addicted. Any other addiction: drugs, alcohol – doesn't matter, you're addicted to a certain, you're used to a certain life, you're used to certain treatment, you're used to a certain day.

You wake up, a routine, and that all goes away, and now you have to start from fresh and you don't know where to go, and that's the hardest part. And that's why I think a lot of people fall back into it, just like they fall back into addiction.

Ken Harbaugh:

I'm Ken Harbaugh, and this is Burn the Boats, a podcast where experts and changemakers share their thoughts on the most pressing issues of the day.

My guest today is Lev Parnas, who played a central role working with Rudy Giuliani in the campaign to pressure Ukraine to investigate the Biden family.

Since then, Lev has worked closely with federal prosecutors to help expose the corruption of Donald Trump and his inner circle of which Lev was a part. Lev, welcome to the show.

Lev Parnas:

Thank you for having me, Ken.

Ken Harbaugh:

I'm pretty sure that most people who follow this network know the basic facts of your story, and if they don't, they can find those in a million other places, it's been covered.

What I want to do is get to know you a bit more. Because everyone I've talked to, at least everyone who knows you well, says that your conversion is real. That you sincerely want to atone, you want to be able to, as I heard you say recently, look your kids and your grandkids in the eyes and say you are on the right side of history.

How did that happen? For most people who orbit Trump as closely as you did, they get sucked in and they never come back out, he is a political blackhole. When did you decide you'd had enough?

Lev Parnas:

As crazy as unfortunate it was, I mean, but I had to have some really, really drastic, and things happened in my life, I had to hit a brick wall. Because I was so entrenched in that cult of Trump and where a lot of these MAGA cultists are, but I was on top of the MAGA as you call it, tree. I was right there with Rudy and Trump. So, I was all in, and it was very difficult.

I mean, the pressure I put on my wife, my kids, changing my whole lifestyle, association of who we were friends with, who we would associate – I mean, our whole life changed in those four years period of time.

And then when I got arrested, it was a transformation like no other. Because for me to be able to really, really atone and try to do good, I had to cut everybody off. I had to cut everything I had. I had to really, I mean, at 52-years-old, start over.

Start over fresh, new friends, new life, because I was on an island, a one man on an island. The left didn't like me, the right didn't like me, here I was, nobody knew who I was, and the media was blowing me up.

And obviously, Bill Barr was using the media and using the Justice Department to try to silence me, make me out to be somebody I'm not to be able to protect Donald Trump. So, with all of that happening, I mean, the most important thing that I was able to get was time.

Time away from that MAGA world. But even by being in my prison cell, by being home confinement, being away from that constant, everyday nonstop, Fox News, OANN, the constant congressman, senators, media – it's just one thing, one thing, one thing and that’s the deep state, go after the Bidens, go after the Clintons, it's like nonstop conspiracy theories every day.

And when I was able to get away from that and able to actually reflect, start to see it from the outside, not from the inside, but to see what it looks, because you know how they always say, “You can't hear what you're saying. It's easier to give somebody advice, but it's harder to take that advice for yourself when you're in the moment.”

So, that was kind of that moment where I was on the outside now looking at all of this craziness, watching them lie on TV, watching them try to cause all this chaos. And it came a time, I said, “Enough is enough. I have to do the right thing.”

And there came a time when I was with my lawyer and my wife, and my lawyer told me, he said, “Look, I can't defend you unless you're all in one way or the other.” And I said, “I'm all in, whatever it takes, I want to do right, I want to make amends. I want to be able to get all this information out.”

And it wasn't overnight, I could tell you. It took some time because there's a lot of pain. It's like being a drug addict. Being in a cult is like being addicted. Any other addiction: drugs, alcohol – doesn't matter. You're addicted to a certain, you're used to a certain life, you're used to a certain treatment. You're used to a certain day, you wake up, a routine and that all goes away. And now, you have to start from fresh and you don't know where to go and that's the hardest part.

And that's why I think a lot of people fall back into it, just like they fall back into addiction, is because it's easier to get back into that slimy world of where everybody agrees than to come out and tell the truth and getting attacked.

So, it took a little bit of time, but I think with the process of my getting arrested, home confinement, being able to reflect, I finally realized that this is what I want to do, and this is the side of history I want to be on.

Ken Harbaugh:

Trump's defenders today, his acolytes, his inner circle, they know they're lying. I mean, it's one thing to be part of a cult, it's another thing to vanish logical thought altogether. How do they maintain the edifice when they're out there?

Lev Parnas:

Well, you have to understand, the people that are listening, the cultists, the MAGA cultists, the supporters, however you want to call them – they truly believe these lies. They don't think they're lying. It's the leaders of the cults like Donald Trump, like Matt Gaetz, like Moscow Marge, like Colbert, Jordan, I mean, the list goes on.

I mean, it's these people that know that they're lying. They know they're lying, but they are pursuing and pushing this lie because the unwilling supporters unknowingly don't understand. Because when they see all of these powerful people, all of these people that were taught as Americans from childhood to respect, to believe the office of the presidency, congressman, senators, media, and they're all out there telling you this lie and pushing it, the cultist truly believe it. But the leaders know it's a lie, and that's the sick part.

Ken Harbaugh:

Well, that is the sick part, and what's most frustrating about that is they are best able to escape responsibility. If you just look at January 6th, for example, none of the provocateurs, Josh Hawley fist-pumping the insurrectionists from a safe distance, the others telling them to charge the barricades. None of the political leadership has experienced any side of accountability for what they did on that day.

Lev Parnas:

And not only that day, but the continuous lies that they continuously push. I mean, you see Marjorie Greene out there, I mean, you see Donald Trump running on a platform that he's going to pardon January … that they're heroes.

I mean, they've gone to such an extreme where they have the national anthem being sung by these guys in prison at his rallies. I mean, this is really crazy and sick. I mean, I've never seen in the history of the United States, maybe you could tell me where a president ran on division, not unification.

Not trying to unite a country, not trying to be a president for all, but literally saying that, “Once I win, half this country's in big trouble because I'm going to go after everybody. It's going to be scorched earth.” And that's the crazy scary part, because he's not hiding it.

None of them are hiding it. It's open and plain out. This is what we're going to do. Once we win, we are going to cause a mayhem. And it's a crazy period of time we're living in right now, Ken.

Ken Harbaugh:

Well, if there's a silver lining in that, it's that this movement has no future. It's not inclusive. It doesn't seek to bring more Americans in. It just seeks to animate the angriest and most retributive instincts of a small fraction of Americans.

The challenge for us is they can get pretty far with that. They can win a presidency without most Americans, and do a ton of damage in the process.

Lev Parnas:

Oh, absolutely. And that's why these elections, I know as we said, these elections are the most important, and they say it. But I mean, this time, I think the words really fit. I mean, if you take a look back at history, and I know there's a lot of people out there that keep saying, “Well, you can't relate Donald Trump to Hitler.”

And I'm not trying to compare the two, because obviously, Hitler was a monster. We don't know Donald Trump yet, his history is still being unfolded. But just take a look at the similarities of how Hitler came to power and how Donald Trump is trying to come to power and stay and retain power.

It's the same ideology of pushing lies, threats, the threat of war, the threat of being taken over, the threat of immigrants, the pure nation, Hitler wanted pure Germany. Now, Trump wants pure America, pure white America. I mean, it's the same.

It's just he turned the words around. And if we learned what history brings, we saw what happened when Hitler won, and Donald Trump is no different. It's even scarier because, I mean, being the most powerful man in the world by being the president of the United States, it's one thing where we're talking about the problems that we're having inside our country and the division and the problems, just think about what will happen outside the country.

What a lot of the MAGA cultists don't understand, because most of these people never travel outside their country, never travel outside their little county or state that they're in. So, they don't understand world politics, they don't care about what happens in Ukraine.

They don't know what happens with Putin. They don't understand they're living today. They don't care what's going to happen to their kids and grandkids and great grandkids down the future, because everything that's happening now, yeah, we might not feel it today.

They might be, “Rah, rah, rah, Donald Trump's doing all this. He's telling this guy to screw himself, that guy to go.” But 20 years from now, we're going to feel it. 20 years from now, our kids are going to be somewhere losing their life on the battlefield, protecting us, and that's the crazy part.

I think the more we get the word out there, the more we spread the message, the more we keep telling it, I think it's extremely important. Because also timing, most Americans right now are not still into the election phase.

Americans don't get into election phase until the summertime, until around end of July, August, September, really, September, October, right before November. Those two, three months is when it starts heating up, and Americans start tuning in to see.

So, all of these polling we see now, all of this money raising we see now, that's his base. I mean, yes, the MAGA cultists are pissed off that he got indicted and they raised more money. They got pissed off, he got convicted, they raised more money, but it's not new money coming in. And that's the important part that we don't need to lose track of.

That majority of America still believes in good humanity and normality and are not out there that want a tyranny. The people that want Trump in office are people that are looking to deal makers, criminals, people that want to wheel and deal, not that they want to run a democracy properly.

Ken Harbaugh:

Well, and that includes foreign leaders as well. I think it is telling that probably the only person on earth who has more at stake in Trump regaining the White House is Vladimir Putin, and you have a perspective on this.

As someone who was born in a former Soviet Republic, and who has recently testified – let me pull up the quote: “The impeachment proceedings …” This is the recent testimony regarding the completely specious impeachment campaign against Joe Biden.

You testified that, “These proceedings that bring us here now are predicated on false information spread by the Kremlin.” How did today's Republican Party become such a willing mouthpiece for Kremlin propaganda?

Lev Parnas:

It's sick. It's sick, but I want to just clear it up a little bit. I don't want to say the Republican Party and we mix it up, it's the MAGA, the MAGA Republican. Because majority of Republicans are decent people.

Though, yes, we might not agree on policies, we might not agree on a lot of things, but we all agree on Putin as evil. We all agree that we need to fight these criminals out there in the world. And it's these MAGA cultists that are part of the Trump world.

And again, I could start naming them, the Moscow Marjories, the Captain Venmo, Matt Gaetz, all of these guys – it's so blinded. They have no idea what the world is going to look like. It's not about policy, t's not about our country, t's all about winning. It's like cheat at any cost.

And right now, the enemy of your friend is my friend, you know what I mean? You know what I'm saying to you? So, they understand, and the sick part is that they're using it and they're getting in bed.

It's like there was this movie where you sell your soul, you make the deal with the devil. Well, “You know, I want to be able to be rich and this and that, when I turn 50, you could have my soul.” And then 40 years fly by really quickly, and you're 50-years-old. Like, “Whoa, I don't want to be with the devil now,” and that's what they're doing.

They're not realizing what this is that they're doing. You hear them talking about how Moscow's so great, how Putin's such a great … how come they won't go there? I would like to see Marjorie Greene go visit Moscow. Go spend some time there. Go Matt Gaetz.

Go take a look at how women's rights are treated there, how LBGTQ rights are treated there, go see how racism is there. We see a pretty picture, and I'm not trying to downplay and say, “All Russians are bad,” absolutely not.

Most Russian people are good people, but the people that are running the country, the people that are doing these criminal acts like the Vladimir Putin and his regime, these are people that have one thing and one thing involved, and they want to bring back the old Soviet Union.

They want to incorporate, take over Ukraine, take over all the former regions, and they're doing it in plain sight. Again, it's a small group of MAGA cultists that have hijacked the Republican Party, and they're holding it hostage and using it.

And I mean, we see it, look what they did with Kevin McCarthy. I mean, you've never seen that. I mean, they tried to do it with Mike Johnson. Mike Johnson went to kiss the ring, didn't work, then had to go and cut a deal with the Democrats to be able to stay … I mean, it's ludicrous to see.

So, I'm really hoping that the world is going to come out and show Donald Trump and the MAGA cultists that enough is enough and it's time to go.

Ken Harbaugh:

I hope so, and everything we're doing here between now and the election is to try to achieve that end. But I think you have to acknowledge that these MAGA cultists within the party hold enormous sway.

I mean, they basically control the speaker of the house. Back to Ukraine again, they delayed aid for seven months. I just got back from Ukraine and I lost count of the number of people who were asking me what in the world was going on.

I asked one priest what the delay meant for him, and instead of answering me, he just held up his phone and swiped through photos of the number of funerals he had to do for members of his parish who died waiting for resupply.

Lev Parnas:

Well, you know who I blame for all of this stuff? Even though Donald Trump is a mastermind, but it's the enablers. It's the Nikki Haleys of the world. How dare you, Nikki Haley come out there and say, you're going to vote for Donald Trump? How dare you?

I mean, the Ted Cruzes, the Marco Rubios, I mean, these people that are being destroyed by Donald Trump and embarrassed, their wives, their families, and they see, and they're running campaigns. During their campaigns, they're out there showing the criminality that Donald Trump is up to.

And then all of a sudden, “I'm going to vote for Donald Trump,” are you kidding me? That's the problem. That's the problem because you know what, if all these people really turned away, there would be no Donald Trump.

I mean, he'd be a small little man with the Laura Loomers of the world, running out there. There would be no Donald Trump. But because of the enablers … I'm sorry, go ahead, Ken.

Ken Harbaugh:

Now, do you think this latest conviction is potentially going to expose Donald Trump as a Potemkin king, as the emperor with no clothes? Because for so long, he's been able to get away with dominating these sick offenses.

You just mentioned the Nikki Haleys and the Ron DeSantises, because he seems invulnerable. Like if you take a shot at the elephant, you better take it down or it's going to trample you. But he seems vulnerable now, and I feel like at least, voters are beginning to question his invincibility.

Lev Parnas:

Absolutely. Well, you know what, he's a convicted felon, his life has changed. And a lot of people don't understand, but Donald Trump is going to start understanding, especially in the next couple of weeks to come, because once he has to sit down … and I went through that process.

Once you have to sit down in front of that probation officer and start divulging your whole life history, and then once you get sentenced … and even if he doesn't go to prison, which I can't imagine how the judge, with everything that went on with the way he just trampled on all of our history of court …

I can't believe the judge doesn't punish him somehow with some sort of, even if it's 30 days or even if it's 24 hours, I don't care. But some way to let him smell the inside of that jail cell. I know he's a big guy, tough guy, talking about he wants to be a … I promise you, he will cry like a baby as soon as he walks in and smells … forget about the doors locking, but just the smell that goes in there and the food.

So, he's not going to be able to get McDonald's delivered to him that easy. There'll be no more Big Macs or cheeseburgers, so I hope that happens. But even if that doesn't happen, I mean, at worst case scenario, he's going to get some sort of supervisionary, maybe home confinement, that's still big.

Trust me when I tell you, I mean, especially for a person like Donald Trump, losing any part of your freedom where you can't just get up and go, where you have to make a phone call, where you have to get permission before you go, and all of that, your life is in the hands of a regular 9 to 5, 55, 60,000 a year job probation officer, and it's up to him to decide or her to decide yes or no.

Yes, you could fight it, yes, you could deal with it, but that's your life. I mean, and if that day you want to go to a job interview and they say, “Nope, we don't want you traveling,” well, you're not going to go Donald Trump. And you might not like it, you might hate it. But that's what his life is going to be all about, reporting drug tests.

He's a convicted criminal now, and that's part of his … every time he goes up there now to speak. And I think that's the important part. Not so much as this case, because even the way the media and everybody else really lowered it and made it seem like this was nothing burger, that this case shouldn't have even been brought, help Donald Trump in that whole thing. Even with all of that said, Americans, I can't believe Americans would vote.

And I'm not talking about the MAGA cultists, but once the elections come out, once the whole world's going to start realizing, once all these American be at that voting, they're going to think to themselves, “Can I look my kids in the face that I'm voting for a convicted felon that has another indictment ahead of him, but he's already a convicted felon.” So, I think that's a very big part of what happened in that case, the biggest part.

Ken Harbaugh:

I want to talk about the politics in a second, but may surprise you, we don't have many guests on here who have firsthand experience with sitting down before a probation officer.

Can you just give us a sense of what that is going to feel like for the former president to have to suffer that indignity? Just paint the picture for us. What's the room like? What's the power dynamic like, because it's going to be unlike anything he's ever experienced in his life.

Lev Parnas:

Well, look, again, it all depends on who he picks. I mean, it's all a pick of the letter just like with judges, probation officers. If he gets lucky and gets a probation officer that's a hardcore MAGA cult … because they're all over. The MAGA is spread into all over our society. They're in our probation, they're in our schools, so it's like the luck of the draw who he gets picked.

But if he gets the normal process, what he should go through, if there's no one way or the other, he's going to come into a little room where there's going to be a probation officer sitting there with him and his lawyer, and there's going to be lots of forms that he's going to already have filled out prior to that, and has sent in that basically goes up your anal cavity with the microscope about everything you've done in the past, what you do, how you drink, what you eat, who you see, who you're friends with, who you're not, how you do your business, how you pay your bills – I mean, everything.

I mean, literally, your whole life story and just filling those papers out, especially for a guy that doesn't abide by the rules, it's very difficult to get forced to do so, that's the first step. He's going to be forced to do things he doesn't want to do.

Ken Harbaugh:

I got a quick question about that. Are those forms legal attestations? Like he can't lie on those, right?

Lev Parnas:

I mean, look, Donald Trump could do whatever he wants. We’ve seen he lies … when he's sleeping, he lies, he lies every time his mouth opens up. So, he’s going to lie on it. But those forms are really meant for the judge to be able to make a decision of how to sentence you. And that's what Donald Trump I guarantee, he doesn't realize.

His lawyers are going to try to explain to him that these forms are meant to show leniency. But guys as narcissist of Donald Trump with the narcissism that he has, he's going to go and lie on these, fill them out however he wants obviously, he’s going to paint the picture the way he wants, and that's what the judge is going to look at.

So, that's why I'm saying when you go in front of the judge and you went to trial and you lost, and now you're going to be sentenced, the judge has three things to look at: you need to take a look at what happened in trial and the verdict, your probation report that is going to come from the probation officer that you filled out, and then to see if you have any remorse.

So, let's take a look at and see, the case was mayhem. I mean, you couldn't have gotten any worse with the judge fighting with him in contempt and all of that. Probation report is probably not going to be much nicer after the way Donald Trump handles it, I'll be curious to see that.

And there's definitely not going to be any remorse. He's not going to get up there and apologize. I mean, he's going to get up there, if anything, and say, this is a rigged trial. So, that's why I'm saying to you for the judge not to give him some sort of prison sentence …

Because if this would be anybody else, and I know the media's out there saying, “Well, these sort of cases, most people don't go to prison,” exactly, because mostly these cases, everybody is apologetic. Everybody wants the cases over, is trying to get the lenient sentence. And that goes into consideration because nobody wants to be a martyr and go to prison.

Donald Trump is so narcissistic, doesn't understand the process, doesn't understand. And that's why I'm very curious to see how Judge Merchan handles this and what sentence he gives him. Because this is a precedent that we're setting. I mean, because if he doesn't do nothing … what's the next billionaire …

It doesn't have to be the next president, it just has to be the next guy with a lot of money that could get up there and do the same thing to our system. And eventually, what happens to our judicial system if he could do that.

So, I think this is more than just a sentence, this is a message that has to be sent through Donald Trump for this not to happen again, not to be able to do what this man is doing.

Ken Harbaugh:

Do you worry about violence between now and the election around events like the sentencing or frankly, anytime the president instigates his followers to do something, he always is able to retreat behind the First Amendment.

But there are always also going to be those MAGA extremists out there who hear the code words, who take it as a call to action, and who act out violently. That's one of my big fears.

Lev Parnas:

Well, absolutely, but just being inside that group and knowing the way you think, I'm not so much worried about the violence now, I'm more concerned about the violence after the election. No matter what happens (win, lose, or draw) because this is like a volcano that's heating up and erupting, but has not erupt. This is all gearing up.

Just think about how this tidal wave, whatever you want to call it, how everything is heading towards November 5th. When November 5th happens, we understand that Donald Trump is not going to take losing gracefully, the MAGA cult.

Just think about to the extremes fanatics go when their team loses a Super Bowl or their team loses, they go out there and trash the city or this area just from football or sports. This is a lot bigger than that. And you're going to have a lot, millions and millions of people that are going to be not happy, upset, and grasping at every straw to save our country in their mind.

And I'm more worried about, not so much about the organized, like the Proud Boy type of stuff that we had, because I think right now, as hot as it is that the FBI and our authorities are eyeing all of these groups to make sure … I'm more worried about the lone wolfs.

Because you have so much of these, and you understand what I'm saying. What does it take for a guy to grab an AK-47 and just go up into a mall and just start shooting it up or go up to … I mean, it just doesn't take that much.

And with guns as accessible as they are, with people being so hardheaded and things going on, that's what I fear the most. These lone wolf, all over the place, popping up, people that decide they want to make a change and having this craziness.

Ken Harbaugh:

Well, now, you have the former president and the people around him targeting FBI officers, spreading this myth that he was the victim of an assassination plot during the raid on Mar-a-Lago. The people around him, not the president himself, although I wouldn't put this past him, have targeted the jurors in the hush money case against him. I mean, this is a recipe for real kinetic action.

Lev Parnas:

Very important what you just said, Ken. And I want to tell the viewers to understand how things work in Donald Trump world. When you said they're targeting the jurors, but we don't know if it's Donald Trump, maybe it is or not.

Donald Trump is a micromanager of everything that goes on, and that's one of the things that was brought up in this trial, and I've been talking about for the past four years that he was involved in every step that I made in Ukraine. He was involved in every step that Michael Cohen did, and he's involved in every step that goes on in his campaign, and go in the election and everything else.

So, this is all strategical. If you take a look at it, with this gag order, there's plenty of strategical meetings between the inner circle of Donald Trump that we used to be the BLT team, but other people like the Matt Gaetz, the Judge D. Janine, and all of these others personnel, the Sean Hannitys that are out there and discussing what they're going — and I'm not even talking about the social media and the Charlie Kirks of the world that are out there – that are specifically his voice pieces. They speak to him, they know.

So, it's like they go out there and basically attack and they're doing his dirty work. So, absolutely, he knows what's going on. He's involved in all of this, and he takes pride in when they attack jurors. He takes pride when they attack the judge. If you take a look, this is who he looks up to.

I mean, people that are out there that are doing his dirty work and that's the scary part, Ken, because that's what the criminal mind, you want to impress your boss? You want to constantly impress your boss. So, then you get these crazy nuts out there with the accessibility of guns the way they are, that's the scary part.

Ken Harbaugh:

How does that inner circle talk about the violence within the MAGA movement? Did you ever have conversations with Giuliani or others about the unintended effects of this rhetoric? Was there ever any attention paid to how the provocations would be received?

Lev Parnas:

No. I mean, there was never any thought about the consequences to the other side. It was always scorched earth. It's always we need to destroy them. If somebody speaks bad about him and he gets beat up, then he deserved it because he shouldn't have been speaking bad about President Trump.

They don't think that's bad that the guy got beat up because of freedom of speech. He was speaking and he got beat up, but it's okay because he shouldn't have been talking. It's a mindset. It's hard to explain to people because the cult mentality is very, very much an addiction.

Your mind is different, you don't think, and that's the scary part because a lot of people are looking and listening to a lot of these people out there that are influential, doctors, lawyers, politicians, wealthy individuals, and regular people think that because they're talking, that means they know.

But these people, are also a part of the cult. It doesn't matter how rich you are, doesn't matter how poor you are, all it takes is for you to give your mind for a certain period of time and be isolated and just think about the same thing, talk about the same thing, and react to the same thing for a period of time.

I promise you, it doesn't matter who you are. Eventually, you are going to believe into that so hard that anything else won’t matter. You'll start turning it out yourself.

Ken Harbaugh:

Does this burnout at some point … I look at the MAGA movement, it doesn't seem to have a whole lot of younger people in it. There are certainly some very influential young people, but I talk to my kids and their friends, and I look at that generation, and there is very little patience for the whole MAGA aesthetic. Do you see this burning out like other cult movements do?

Lev Parnas:

Oh, absolutely. But for it to burn out just like other cult movements, you have to chop off the head. And as long as Donald Trump is going to be out there running for office or in office or around office or dealing with it, it's not going to go away, and it's going to continue.

And the scary part is now they're using the young and trying to recruit more and more MAGA cultists through the young crowd by using the Charlie Kirks of the world to go out there and promote that. But that's the key, Ken.

And hopefully, with these elections, this will be because once he loses, Donald Trump, the convicted felon, life will turn into court cases and dealing with staying afloat, not going to prison, and that will take him away from the spectrum.

Ken Harbaugh:

Do you think that will be defining for the MAGA movement? I guess this is the old question, is he a symptom or a cause? Is he the head of the snake or is there some deeper upwelling that's going to propel another Trump-like figure to the head of this hateful movement? Is Tucker Carlson the next iteration of this?

Lev Parnas:

No. No Ken. Look, this movement's been around embedded in our society forever. I mean, we have racists in America, we have people that don’t want immigrants in America going back hundreds … this is why we've progressed into new laws and those to be able to be a better America.

And that's why their voice, which was powerful maybe 200 years ago, has withered the way to a point where, yeah, they became a minority. They would have these conversations in their inner circles, in their dining room tables, but they would understand that society didn't accept it and they wouldn't be out there pounding their chest that, “Hey, I'm a racist and it's okay, and I want to do away with all immigrants and it's okay.” You know what I'm saying to you?

They could have thought about it and we had a lot of people there, but they didn't act because it was not accepted. Donald Trump came in and gave them that voice. He told them, “It's okay. You are allowed to go out there and say, I don't want this immigrant working with me, or I don't like black people, or I don't want Jews, or I don't … it's okay.”

America first: as long as you're white Christian and you're an American, then you could do whatever you want and everybody else doesn't matter. And he tuned into that group of minority and gave them a voice.

And then what happened was a lot of people that are not even so much for politics, but for their own personal gain, jumped on that bandwagon because they wanted lower taxes, because they liked the rhetoric, because they hated the — whatever the reason, but they jumped on it, not because they are racist, but because there were certain parts that they agreed to not thinking that this could be such a movement.

But that MAGA cultist base has been around forever in the United States, it's just been a minority. Their voices have been withered away and Donald Trump opened it back up and gave them that voice to bring back instead of progressing and going forward. He's saying let's take America back a hundred years. Let's take it back to the 1950s where women can't vote, where there's abortions outlawed, where blacks can't have rights. I mean, let's go back to it.

If you take a look at their policies, I mean, that's what they're slowly but surely moving us back, not by going forward, but by going backwards.

Ken Harbaugh:

I've done a 180 on this whole issue of Trump and the symptom or cause question because he really is a singular figure in American politics. I can't think of anyone else for whom people will charge the capital, go to jail, die even.

They're not going to do that for Ron DeSantis, they're not going to launch an insurrection and smuggle weapons into D.C. for Josh Hawley, Trump's the only one they'll do it for. That's the nature of a cult. You can't replace the leader if it's a cult of personality, which it is.

And so, I think you're right. To borrow the phrase, we don't mean it literally, because we'll get criticized for this – but if you cut the head off the snake, the snake dies.

Lev Parnas:

Correct. I agree with you 100%, and I think that's where we're at. Because like you said, there's nobody there: Matt Gaetz, I mean, Marjorie Greene, I mean, they all wither away. I mean, the only reason they're even out there is because they're sitting right next to him and running around with him, and they're at their war with each other.

If you look at what Marjorie Greene and Lauren Boebert, they're fighting, and I mean, just think about it. You take Trump out of the picture, they would be eaten up so quickly and that Republican, those voices, you wouldn't hear from them. It would come back to normality.

The Republicans would get back to Republicans and it would come back to normal, it'd be really quick because all you have to do is get rid. Because remember, there's not a lot of them, they just have a loud voice.

They just could scream bigger, talk louder, and the other thing is they go to places they don't play fair, and that's why they're louder. They will say things that you won't say because A, it's just not normal, it's illegal, it might be a lie. So, you won't do it because you have ethics.

They don't have any of that. They'll say whatever it takes, they'll lie to you, they'll insult you, they'll do whatever it takes. It doesn't matter, and that's why it's an unlevel playing field.

So, when they're out there screaming, “Oh, you're a criminal. You're a criminal, you're a criminal” when you're not a criminal and eventually, people are saying, “Well, maybe he's a criminal,” she's saying it like a hundred times.

Nobody's stopping her, and that's the ammo, they just keep repeating the same thing over until eventually that's their whole … same thing with this sham of a kangaroo court that they had at the congress, at the hearings.

I mean, it wasn't about finding the truth, it wasn't about asking questions. It was about just filibustering, saying some stuff and getting some headlines out there and here we are going back onto it. No impeachment, and that's what I'm saying to you, it's all about that.

And it goes back to what we were doing, that was the start of it. When we went and we realized that there was no there-there with Hunter Biden and Joe Biden, we then decided it's time to use the media and push that they're there.

And if there wasn't facts, we'll create the facts. And it's been going ever since then, for the past six years, since 2018 when we began, we're in 2024, it’s same thing. If there's no facts, we'll create the facts. If there's no truth, we'll create the lies and create the truth.

We'll create whatever you want to hear, and we'll say whatever you want to hear literally, and do whatever you want to do just to get your vote. But then it's over with, then I'm going to do whatever I want.

Ken Harbaugh:

And you have witting accomplices with major media organizations who are totally ready to pick up those false narratives and that disinformation and run with it.

I mean, you can almost see the chain of events from a tweet on Truth Social and whatever those backdoor, strategic meetings are to Fox News, picking it up, to it filtering through the far-right media ecosystem. I mean, there's an entire infrastructure built to spread these lies.

Lev Parnas:

Yeah. And I mean, but also Trump knows how to use the media, he uses them at their own … like I'll give you an example. CNN, even though everybody screams at CNN, but I think CNN is one of the biggest Trump promoters out there because of the way they constantly air his stuff because they're so scared not to get sued that they have to preference every time.

Like before somebody goes up there, before they put me on there, they'll go in for five-minute tirade that I'm a criminal, convicted this, this, this, this, this, and now let's speak to left partners. You get like a Bobulinski or any of those guys that go on Fox, “This is an American hero, this is a person saving our democracy.”

So, what I'm saying to you is it's the media, Fox doesn't play fair. They say whatever they want and CNN tries to be ultra in the middle, and they’re trying to be also correct. And by being that, they're still giving Trump that platform and exposing and showing him, just take a look how they covered the hush money trial.

If you take a look at how CNN and their … I mean, Eli Holden, I mean, I'm still mind-blown, this guy, I don't know what he was doing there. Why have him on there? Okay, that's his opinion. He has a right to have the opinion, but I mean, why have the guy up there that he should have been on Fox News.

I mean, so now, if you're having it, so just think about that's why most of America think this trial was a sham because of the way CNN covered it, Fox covered it, MSNBC not so much, I'll give it to them, but the way it was covered, everybody's like, “Come on, it's a joke. Everybody's saying it's a joke.”

Ken Harbaugh:

Well, if you had just watched the media coverage of the trial, you would've assumed that either he was going to get off or it was going to be a close call. And the fact that it was a unanimous jury verdict on all 34 counts is as much an indictment of the media as it is of Donald Trump.

Lev Parnas:

Yes, yes, in 24 hours, and it was that quick. I mean, just think of it, it takes time to go through all the counts. And you had people on that jury. You had one of the jurors that I think, I'm not sure, but I think she was a Truth Social follower. She retweeted Trump and she still voted against him.

So, what I'm saying to you is that … and the media at fault of it, they're just the same accomplices and enablers because again, everybody wants that breaking news. Nobody wants to go through the news and Trump knows that.

So, he knows that if there's something coming out and he doesn't want the world to see that, he's going to break some other news. He'll just go up there, he'll come out there and say, “Hey, you know what, President Putin, if NATO doesn't pay us, I want you to invade NATO.”

Like who's asking you to — like what would possess a person, the president to come out and make those comments? If you take a look at the news, that day he needs to change the news cycle, and that's how he changes the news cycle.

He'll come out and say something so far off that all the media will stop what they're doing, they'll stop the stories they're running, and they will jump on whatever next thing he said, and that's why most Americans in most world don't know all the craziness about Donald Trump, because he keeps changing it.

Ken Harbaugh:

I want to go back to one thing you said, and we'll end on this note because it's a weird, kind of a uplifting note for a show like this.

The folks we're talking about, the Matt Gaetzs and the Lauren Boeberts and the Marjorie Taylor Greenes and the Donald Trump’s – we had a guest on this show who made the observation former Republican, that the only people they actually hate more than us are each other.

Lev Parnas:

Yeah, that's what I was going to say.

Ken Harbaugh:

And the infighting must have been something to behold. As someone in Trump's inner circle, can you talk about the animus within that group and just …

Lev Parnas:

Yeah, that's the whole thing, Ken. I mean, you take a look, when you watch TV or you watch, you think like Bannon and Stone and Giuliani and all of these people are together on the same team trying to … absolutely, they hate each other.

They're all on different camps. They're all out there. It's like, “Who's going to get the boss's attention?” It's like a TV show, it's like Apprentice. He's running like The Apprentice where these are all contestants and who's going to bring the next sort of big company, who's going to bring the next crazy story that's going to help him win the election?

Who's going to bring that controversy against Joe Biden or Hunter? Who's going to find that laptop? It was like searching for, where's Waldo? That's what all of these people are, and they're out there screwing each other, hurting each other because it's like … to envision it, it's like as one of them is getting ahead, the other one jumps and pulls them back and tries to get ahead.

So, none of them want to get in the cut's … like get the actual story. That's who's going to give it to him first? Who's going to get the credit for it? Who's going to get paid basically for it? Who's going to get the favor or who's going to be the spotlight? And that's what they all fight for.

It doesn't matter if it's Devin Nunes that used to be looked for, he had midnight run part of the BLT team, and now he's the CEO of Trump Truth Social, next stop, jail. You know what I'm saying to you? It's all of them.

But they're all at each other's throats, it's a competition. The best way to put it is just a real-life Apprentice going on between all of these people with them.

Ken Harbaugh:

Well, let's leave it there. If Democrats cannot take advantage of that between now and the election, it's political malpractice. But I know we can, I think Joe Biden's going to win. It's going to be close. Lev, thanks for everything you are doing, let's talk again soon.

Lev Parnas:

Thank you, Ken. Thank you for having me.

Ken Harbaugh:

Thanks for listening to Burn the Boats. If you have any feedback, please email the team at [email protected]. We're always looking to improve the show. For updates and more, follow us on Twitter at Team_Harbaugh, and if you enjoyed this episode, don't forget to rate and review.

Burn the Boats is a production of Evergreen Podcasts. Our producer is Declan Rohrs and Sean Rule-Hoffman is our audio engineer. Special thanks to Evergreen executive producers, Joan Andrews, Michael DeAloia and David Moss.

I'm Ken Harbaugh and this is Burn the Boats, a podcast about big decisions.