Sam Hartwell: Why Ukraine Still Needs Us

Ken Harbaugh:

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Sam Hartwell:

Why the affinity to Putin, other than Trump wants to be a strong man, he does not believe in American style liberal democracy. And that's the part that really, really scares me. And this could really push us and Europe into a third World War at some point.

Ken Harbaugh:

I’m Ken Harbaugh, and this is Burn the Boats, a podcast about big decisions.

My guest today is Sam Hartwell, a retired army colonel who has briefly returned home after two years in Ukraine. Based in Kyiv, Sam has been assisting multiple humanitarian aid organizations. I brought him on the show to talk about his efforts, the state of the war, and what's at stake.

Sam, welcome to the show.

Sam Hartwell:

My pleasure. Thanks for having me.

J. D. Vance:

I think it's ridiculous that we're focused on this border in Ukraine. I got to be honest with you, I don't really care what happens to Ukraine one way or another.

Ken Harbaugh:

So, we just played that clip of J.D. Vance during his senatorial campaign. My senator from Ohio, I am embarrassed to say, saying that he doesn't care one way or another what happens in Ukraine.

At the time, there was some outrage expressed in response to that statement, but it has become kind of normal within the Republican Party today.

You have senior Republicans delaying the aid to Ukraine. You have perhaps fringe Republicans, but certainly influential ones, saying that Putin is actually our friend, not Zelenskyy. How do you respond to that kind of behavior from the party that was once the party of national security?

Sam Hartwell:

Yeah, I too I’m from Ohio, and I'm ashamed. Ridiculous that that is Vance with Ukraine is not important, and that Putin is our friend. He is our sworn enemy.

Every single day he's telling his people that America and NATO are behind all their problems, and that he states openly that he wants to destroy NATO, that he wants to go back to the old days, the prenatal borders when Warsaw Pact still existed.

They'd said openly that, “Yeah, we did interfere with your elections and we're going to continue to interfere with your elections.” You probably just saw the Havana Syndrome reports that are coming out and what Russia is up to with their assassination.

I've been told by Ukrainians who are following what's going on inside Russia, they do every day. We can't, we don't follow anything. Our news doesn't report anything.

But inside the Russian army, now, they have a song that says we are screwing NATO. And we're using the F word, of course. That is what's going on inside Russia.

Now, if J. D. Vance and others think that NATO is not important, let's back up a second. Our national security and prosperity has depended on our political and international security arrangements since the end of World War II.

From Japan and Korea, all the way to Europe, of course, that has preserved an international order that has allowed for commerce and mutual prosperity. And the political links between us and Europe, and then Europe and the rest of the world, is what has created this prosperity in the United States.

We're all of the same ill, so to speak, politically, morally, and so on. Do you allow … I'm sorry, go ahead, you-

Ken Harbaugh:

Now, I want to play this clip of Donald Trump saying that if the Europeans don't pay their bills, (and I'm putting that in air quotes intentionally) that he will let Putin do whatever he wants when it comes to NATO. Let's play the clip. I'll get your reaction afterwards.

Donald Trump:

“If we don't pay, are you still going to protect us?” I said, “Absolutely not.” They couldn't believe the answer. And everybody, you never saw more money pour in.

The Secretary General Stoltenberg, well, I don't know if he is anymore, but he was my biggest fan. He said, “All these presidents came in, they'd make a speech, they'd leave, and that was a bit … and they all owed money and they wouldn't pay it.” I came in, I made a speech, and I said, “You got to pay up.”

They asked me that question. One of the presidents of a big country stood up, said, “Well, sir, if we don't pay and we're attacked by Russia, will you protect us?” I said, “You didn't pay? You're delinquent?”

He said, “Yes, let's say that happened.” “No, I would not protect you. In fact, I would encourage them to do whatever the hell they want. You got to pay your bills.”

Ken Harbaugh:

So, Sam, talk to us about Article 5, our treaty obligations to NATO members, and what it signifies that a former commander in chief, potentially the next commander in chief, would abandon our allies because of his affinity for a tyrant, Vladimir Putin.

Sam Hartwell:

No one would ever trust us again. No one should ever trust us again. And for a former president, to say that I will personally abrogate a treaty that has kept global security for the last 50 plus years is absolutely important.

Again, the linkages between us and Europe, particularly politically and economically, is what has made America prosperous. It's beyond me that he could think that we can go it alone and just let Putin do whatever he wants.

He destroyed Chechnya. Now, he wants to destroy Ukraine. It'll turn Ukraine into like a Chechnya state that is antagonistic to the West, and there'll be another, at least European, if not global war, in five to seven years. The Europeans are planning on it, and it's just …

I understand that Germany never paid 2% of GDP ever, and only four NATO countries have met the 2% goal since 2015. Only one is consistently bet, and that's Greece.

I get that. We all get that. I was in Germany in the ‘80s, and I understood that they just were surviving under our defense umbrella. But you don't say that I'm just going to walk away from the treaty.

He's a businessman. He knows that easily, he could say, “Alright, we'll raise tariffs if you don't invest.” But to say that I'm not going to defend you selectively, it'll destroy the relationship and the economic and political ties between us and Europe.

If Russia is allowed to win, then the Europeans will have to kowtow to Russia.

Ken Harbaugh:

I think it's clear to most people who understand Trump's thinking that his skepticism towards NATO is less about some business proposition than it is his affinity for Putin. He actually favors the Putinist model of governance.

And you have some historical perspective here. You were on the front lines of the Cold War. You literally stood in the folder gap facing down those Russian divisions that would be the first to come through.

Putin's vision for revanchist Russia is expansive. It doesn't end with Ukraine. It doesn't even end with the Baltics necessarily. He has ambitions for greater Russia that if we really understood, would terrify us.

Sam Hartwell:

First of all, the easy play, if he wins in Ukraine, we lose big time. We lose a great partner, a great military ally.

But then Putin easily walks into Moldova where he still has a battalion, basically in the Transnistria region, the Baltics, they won't even be able to fight. They'd be done in six days. And then he wants Poland. Absolutely.

And if he can't get what he wants politically, he will use force. Won't be tanks, his ground forces are awful. But the missile forces and drone forces will be catastrophic, and that will force the Europeans to kowtow to Russia. And then we've lost the relationship.

Ken Harbaugh:

Can you talk about some of the lies being spread, the disinformation being amplified by leaders within the Republican Party about where the money is going in Ukraine, about the risks to Americans? Help us dispel some of those myths.

Sam Hartwell:

Right. I can start with the main one. Europe is not doing enough. This is what I hear from even some of my best friends who are in support of Ukraine. That narrative's absolutely wrong. I have detailed analyses from Europe actually, on the American contribution and the European contribution.

The Americans, we have contributed a total of about $75 billion in total aid, of which 46 billion of that is actual military equipment. Equipment that, by the way, we're not going to use, that it was there actually for the defense of Europe. And Europe needs it now, precisely in Ukraine.

It is equipment that we're going to replace with new stuff that these attacker missiles, for example, are going to be replaced by a new model. It'll cost more, I'm sure, to decommission these weapons and simply give them to the Ukrainians to help them defend themselves.

Ukraine was attacked by Russia. We're helping them defend themselves with old equipment already paid for.

And by the way, anything new that's already on the drawing board that we buy, that benefits the United States in terms of US jobs. And by the way, most of that is produced in Republican districts.

Then there's a small amount, they say 25 billion that goes into actual humanitarian support.

And that I say to the Christians, these far-right Christians who keep talking about how Christian they are, humanitarian aid for a great friend of the United States. Ukraine is a great friend of the United States. People don't realize that they fought alongside us in Afghanistan and Iraq.

I met some of those troops in Afghanistan when I was there, and actually I met them again in Ukraine. Incredible accident, but I did.

On the European side, Europeans not doing enough? Wait a second, 156 billion, they have contributed in terms of military equipment and humanitarian aid. They've done more in humanitarian aid than we have, by the way.

And their equipment is the type of equipment that actually Ukraine needs more than our own equipment. The former Soviet tanks that they're used to, the T-72 upgraded models, which are pretty good, and artillery and so on.

And I can supply you later, we brought both of these analyses. One was from a German institute and the other from a Turkish institute. When people think that maybe Turkey is kind of playing in the middle, a little on side of Russia, a little on side of NATO.

But that analysis was very, very precise country by country showing the money and the equipment given by the Europeans.

Now, on a GDP basis, for example, Germany with a population of 85 million people, has given $35 billion in total aid. We, United States with 330 million people have given, as I said, 75 billion in aid.

When you do the math, it works out that on a per person basis, they're given much more than we are. And then if you convert that as a part of GDP, then it's something like four times more than we’re giving as a percentage of GDP.

Because I didn't know it until I did the research, but the GDP per capita in the United States is actually twice that.

Ken Harbaugh:

What is the effect of the delay in passing the latest aid package for Ukraine? You've been on the ground, you've seen what the Ukrainian defenders are having to fight with. What does it mean that we are no longer resupplying them the way we were?

Sam Hartwell:

I'm sad to say that I think that now, it's impossible for them to get back Crimea. They tell me I'm wrong, the Intel guys that I talked to, the Ukrainian intel guys that I talked to still feel like they can get Crimea back.

But the point is, when they're being outgunned with artillery on a daily basis, seven rounds to one, that they're going to be out of ammunition here shortly.

Now, they've fought heroically. They've only given up about 10 miles across in certain parts of the front since December when the aid stopped. But I'm told also, that it's going to take another 90 days (I hope that's wrong) to get aid flowing again, and that would be catastrophic.

The worst possible situation was that the Russians could get close to Dnieper and start shelling it the way that they're shelling Kharkiv now.

That was the direct effect of not supporting Ukraine, was that Kharkiv is now, being evacuated. All the electricity and the water supplies have been taken out by these long-range missiles just in the last 30 days.

Ken Harbaugh:

So, Sam, I'd love for you to share with us the human cost of these delays. It's not just about power plants and water treatment facilities getting hit. The Ukrainian soldier at the front is bearing the brunt of the cost of our refusal to send him or her help.

Sam Hartwell:

Yeah, their averaging, as I was told when I left, about a thousand amputee patients per month. I've seen these guys, I have photos, I have video. Single, double, and triple amputations.

And what amazes me about these guys is that they're so resilient, so happy to be alive. Their families are around them. A guy who didn't even have to join the army because he had three kids, I've seen several of these guys come back as triple amputees.

Thousands of these amputee patients a month, only 200 can be serviced or treated by the Ukrainian medical system. Another hundred can be taken care of by NGOs and foreign governments outside of Ukraine.

But that leaves a 700 a month amputees that are building that have no treatment, and that's expensive, expensive technology to do it.

Then the TBI injuries, which are in my mind, the most important that need to be dealt with right now, because as you know, that TBI wounded they need treatment right away, or they will remain in a vegetative state and they will not be able to rehabilitate in any way.

And they're getting hundreds of these guys. They don't have precise figures on that, but I've seen some of the guys.

The Russians are using these 500 to 2,500 glide bombs that come from as far as 20 kilometers away, I'm told, and there's nothing you can do against those. And they used 60 of those a day in Avdiivka, one of the last major battles. It never ends.

Now, you talk about, and that's the military cost, but on the civilian side, Kharkiv is now, being pummeled. It's being evacuated.

And those folks, there's already 7 million Ukrainians that had to leave and have sanctuary in Europe, and the Europeans are picking up that cost. That's another big cost that the Europeans are picking up.

And so, the internally displaced was at about 15 million, and that's moving up to it's got to be close to 20 million now.

Ken Harbaugh:

Can you talk about the spirit of the Ukrainian people? I mean, the war has gone on and on and on, and surely, there must be fatigue setting in. In spite of that, I continue to hear stories about incredible bravery from soldiers and civilians alike.

Sam Hartwell:

Fatigue? Anger, I think increases far more than fatigue. These folks, they don't give up. That's why I love living there and I live in Kyiv. And the bravery and the resiliency of these folks, they don't even care about the missile sirens anymore. They just continue on as if it's nothing.

The kids I feel bad for because they can't go to normal school anymore. They're doing schooling like even underground in some places.

But the anger, I mean, to the point where when people talk about the Russians will use nuclear weapons against Ukraine, which is nonsense. I could talk about that later if you want.

But as the Ukrainians say, “You know what, bring it. You want to do this, bring it. But we're still not going to quit. We can run out of ammunition, there's not going to be any cutting and running.” They will fight to the death.

Ken Harbaugh:

Why do you think that message is falling on deaf ears in the Republican controlled Congress? Why do they continue to come up with excuses to delay the aid? Why are they tying it to unrelated bills? Is that a just a smokescreen to appease Trump, or is there a strategy behind it?

Sam Hartwell:

There's no strategy, that's for sure, other than you oppose the side that you want to defeat on any basis. They're supporting Trump, the Trump line. And if Trump has his base that will accept anything that he says. So, they will make up any excuse necessary to support a Trump line of reasoning.

So many fallacies out there. The most egregious one I think that I just heard recently is that Ukrainians are persecuting Christians. Oh my God, that's absolutely the opposite. And I hear that from the likes of J. D. Vance, Rand Paul, Thomas Massie also from Kentucky, Gaetz and Greene and all of the … that is absolutely ridiculous.

And in Ukraine, more than 90% of that country believes in God. The latest that I've seen in the United States is that about 50% still believe in God.

Ukraine is a country that has Greek Catholic, Ukrainian Orthodox, Jewish, Muslim, Protestant, and Baptist.

Russian Orthodox Church was there, but the Russian Orthodox Church in Moscow, Moscow controlled, is known to be controlled by the FSB, the former KGB. The Kirill who runs it is a Soviet trained KGB agent.

And by the way, again, I don't know if anybody realizes this, but he has just declared the war against Ukraine as a Holy War. So, who's Christian and who's not Christian?

And I say to our American Christians, of which I am one, a Reagan style Christian. I don't wear it on my sleeve, but by God, if my friends are dying and in desperate need of assistance, I, as a Christian, I'm obligated to go help at. That's what I've been doing for two years.

And how these folks cannot help and resist that kind of support to their fellow Christians is just beyond me. It's hypocrisy beyond belief.

Now, I've been to two Easter masses in Ukraine. The first one was right after the war started. That was in their Easter, at the time, I think was late April of that year. And it was the most religious experience I think I've ever had.

I mean, you could feel the presence of a higher power in that Greek Catholic church in Lviv. It was fantastic. So, that's rubbish. Absolutely rubbish.

Ken Harbaugh:

How do you explain Trump's affinity for Putin? This is a topic we have mined well on this show, but I haven't talked to someone about it in the context of his abandonment of Ukraine.

I mean, he obviously sees Putin as an ally when it comes to domestic politics. He approves of his approach to governance. He's very skeptical of NATO. But the abandonment of Ukraine seems to be as much about pleasing Putin as it is about whatever the Ukrainians are doing.

Sam Hartwell:

I can't believe that he's so naive to think that he could make a deal with Putin. When I listened to him talk, and I see the things that he says, it was telling that when he was getting a briefing from his national intelligence chief that he cut that person off and said, “I know all about that. Orban already told me everything.”

Now, he's going to listen to Viktor Orban, the prime Minister of Hungary, little country of 10 million people. And Orban is known in Europe to have received his first political money, his first donation from Putin, a million euros many years ago. He was bought by Putin.

In fact, Hungary is still the only country in Europe that gives a Schengen visa to Russians. It's the only country that still gives a golden passport, I think they call it, to Russians.

And that is if you give 1 million Euros to an organization inside Hungary that Orban’s party supports, then you get an automatic citizenship. So, it's a Trojan horse for Russia.

And I know people don't know this in the United States, Europeans know it. Russians can come into Hungary and then go wherever they want in Europe under a Schengen visa, and as citizens, anywhere else that they want in Europe.

So, why he would listen to Orban is beyond me. And now, why the affinity to Putin, other than Trump wants to be a strong man, he does not believe in American style liberal democracy. And that's the part that really, really scares me.

All the other policies, the border, and trade, and China, I get all that. I get all that. A lot of people get all that. And I'll never be able to change the opinions of some of those people on the support for Trump. I'm trying to change people's opinions on the support for Ukraine and the support for Europe.

Our fathers, grandfathers, and great-grandfathers fought two world wars to establish this international security architecture that has allowed us to prosper and maintain peace for 50 years.

And this government, the United States, there's many, many intelligent people in this country who understand the importance of those relationships, but he doesn't. And this could really push us and Europe into a third world war at some point.

Ken Harbaugh:

I want to end with your explanation of the return on investment that Americans are getting in Ukraine for the aid that we have sent, for the aid that's proposed. It's a lot of money. I mean, $75 billion could be spent in other ways.

But what is the return that we're getting as the Ukrainians actually do the fighting themselves? Because none of them are asking us to bleed and die in their defense, they're just asking for ammo.

Sam Hartwell:

Absolutely. And let me just back up a second there. That 75 billion, 45 billion of that 75 is equipment that's already paid for that we're not going to use, that we actually need to dispose of most of it, give it to them to defend themselves. We're going to replace it anyway.

Those result in American jobs in Republican controlled districts, most of all. That alone is a great return on investment.

If we give, as Senator Graham, who I know supports Ukraine, but his hands are tied, has said, “5% of our defense budget that is degrading our number one enemy (which Trump doesn't realize it yet, but he's going to) is a fantastic return on investment.”

If Russia is allowed to win in Ukraine, we will lose the best ally that we never had. The Ukrainian military with a million men under arms, 500,000 with combat experience, the best intelligence system against the Russians in the world, far better than anything the Europeans we have.

This is fantastic return on investment in terms of security, and in terms of economics, and in terms of preserving an international security order in Europe.

Ken Harbaugh:

Well, Sam, thank you for that clear distillation. I want to end with this clip of the Prime Minister of Australia describing from firsthand experience, Trump's affinity for Putin. Describes him as a 12-year-old boy trying to impress the football team captain. If it weren't so chilling, it would be funny.

Thanks again, Sam. We'll roll the clip.

Sam Hartwell:

Thanks.

Speaker 6:

The Republican Party under Donald Trump and particularly the right wing of the Republican Party are very sympathetic to Vladimir Putin.

I mean, I've been with Trump and Putin. Trump is in awe of Putin. When you see Trump with Putin, as I have on a few occasions, he's like the 12-year-old boy that goes to high school and meets the captain of the football team. My hero. It is really creepy. It's really creepy.

Ken Harbaugh:

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Burn the Boats is a production of Evergreen Podcasts. Our producer is Declan Rohrs, and Sean Rule-Hoffman is our audio engineer. Special thanks to Evergreen executive producers, Joan Andrews, Michael DeAloia, and David Moss.

I'm Ken Harbaugh, and this is Burn the Boats, a podcast about big decisions.