“So Much Blood”: The Lincoln Project Podcast w/Ryan Hamilton

Ken Harbaugh:

It's Ken Harbaugh with the MeidasTouch Network. This is a tough episode.

Ryan Hamilton's wife nearly died after a miscarriage because of extremist policies in Texas passed by religious zealots posing as political leaders.

Given the stakes in this presidential election, for women especially, this may well be the most important interview we've ever shared, and I'm not even the one doing the interview. There are two reasons for that.

The first is that my good friend over at The Lincoln Project, Rick Wilson, just had an extraordinarily thoughtful and compassionate conversation with Ryan. That's what you'll be hearing today.

Huge thanks to Rick and The Lincoln Project Podcast for giving us permission to re-air this. If you haven't yet subscribed to The Lincoln Project Podcast, please do. The link is in the show notes.

The second reason is that I am pretty sure I would not have made it through this interview if I was the one doing it.

My wife, Annmarie, and I lost a child years ago, and it is still hard to talk about. I wrote about it at the time. I'll share that essay with you at the end of this interview. But I know there is no way I could have gotten through this conversation with nearly the level of professionalism that Rick brings to it.

I also cannot fathom the strength it takes Ryan to keep telling this story, but he tells it because it matters. I hope you'll listen, I hope you'll share it, and I hope you'll vote like lives depend on it.

Here's Rick Wilson and Ryan Hamilton.

Rick Wilson:

Folks, this is a tough show. I'm recording this after we've recorded the show, and I'm a little shook. I'm going to be honest with you. I'm upset, I'm emotional, I'm angry.

The story you're about to hear is of Ryan Hamilton and his wife and the fact that the state of Texas caused her, even though her child had died, to be tortured for 96 hours based on their abortion bans in the state and the lavish, insane cruelty of those bans.

They're not pro-life. They're not small government. They're not in any way, anything you could imagine, and they're backed up by an army of online hate that we will talk about towards the end of this segment that has left me absolutely livid.

It's a tough show. Don't listen to this with your kids. It's hard. It's very, very difficult to hear, but I want you to hear it because Ryan Hamilton's story is important. It speaks to where our country's headed and headed fast in a lot of states that have decided that women don't have rights at all.

And I say this as somebody who believes that abortion is a morally complicated and terrible issue. I say this as someone who treasures life, but I say this also, as someone who, when you watch the hand of government with the corporate medical establishment play out in this story, if you're not as disgusted and angry as I am, I will be shocked. It's not easy to listen to.

But with that, let's go with our friend Ryan Hamilton. Thanks.

Speaker 3:

Your task will not be an easy one. Your enemy is well trained, well equipped, and battle hard.

Speaker 4:

There is not a liberal America and a conservative America. There is the United States of America.

Speaker 5:

And good luck.

Rick Wilson:

Hi, folks, and welcome back to The Lincoln Project Podcast.

Our guest today is Ryan Hamilton, and you may have heard Ryan and his wife's story. They live in rural Texas and a few months ago, Ryan's wife got some very tragic news that their child that they desperately wanted no longer had a heartbeat.

And Ryan's story and the story of his wife played out in the state of Texas, unfortunately, where because of the change in the laws there and because of the change in the post-Dobbs environment, the restrictions on women receiving life-saving healthcare have become so onerous and so punitive that his wife had to suffer through excruciating days of pain, and fear, and terror.

And Ryan has told his story in such an eloquent way, and I'm so grateful, Ryan, for you coming on the show today, because I think our audience needs to hear a little bit about what's at stake as we move forward.

And your story, and your wife's story, and your family's story is one that moved me profoundly. And I wanted to have you on because I think your voice and your experience is really important.

So, thank you for coming on the podcast. And if you could, better than I can, tell us the story and then I want to dive into the different parts of it and talk about the future.

Ryan Hamilton:

No problem. Thank you for having me first of all. As I've said a few times, this is the last thing I thought I would be doing.

Rick Wilson:

I'm sure.

Ryan Hamilton:

But I'm here and I'm going to do my best. And that may be the first time somebody's called me eloquent. So, thank you very much. I appreciate that.

So, God, several weeks ago, it was a Thursday, my wife was almost 13 weeks pregnant with our second child. And she just made a comment in passing, “I don't feel right, something doesn't feel right.” And that just kind of rings alarm bells for any couple.

Not long after that she had severe abdominal pain and then she started bleeding and we went to … we live, like you said, in a rural part of Texas. So, we only have two options. We have the big scary hospital or an emergency clinic.

And in that situation, the calmer environment of an emergency clinic felt better. So, that's what we did. And it was closer.

So, we went to the emergency clinic and there they examined her and found out that our baby no longer had a heartbeat.

And they also, discovered that it had actually stopped growing and its heart had probably stopped a week or so prior. Which made it even more urgent because my wife could develop sepsis, the risk of infection skyrockets.

They tell us that we have two options. There's a DNC, which is something we learned about — I mean, we had kind of heard about it in the way other people hear about it, these stories in the news but you're not really familiar. Or a drug called misoprostol.

They said that they didn't do, wouldn't do the DNC there. And suggested the misoprostol, which they would write us a prescription for and send us home.

That to us was really concerning because first of all, why are they giving us an option that they can't or won't do? And secondly, why would we ever go home to handle this ourselves? And that's what the doctor did.

And in that moment, we're looking to the doctor to tell us what to do. We're devastated by that news, and we want the doctor to tell us that this is what you should do now.

And that's what they did. They wrote us a prescription for misoprostol and sent us home. And the pharmacy didn't open until the next morning. So, we had to go home and go to bed and try and sleep with that knowledge and with the baby still inside of my wife. And nobody slept. She cried all night.

And the next morning, Friday morning, I was at the pharmacy first thing to try and get the prescription.

After we left, we did a little research that Thursday night just because you're in the middle of it and you want to understand. And just like a lot of people, you get on your phone and you want to see what is this drug? What are we getting ourselves into?

And we learned that not every pharmacy will even fill a prescription for misoprostol in Texas because it's referred to as the abortion pill.

We got lucky, I found a pharmacy with an all-female staff, and they filled the prescription. And when they filled the prescription, the pharmacist held my hand. It was odd, but I remember her grabbing my hand and just looking at me like she was trying to comfort me or just tell me like, “It's okay.”

I don't know. I was either looking a certain way that made her do that or she knew that we couldn't get that drug anywhere else.

So, I go home that Friday morning with the prescription, and we start. And the instructions on the prescription are one sentence. Insert vaginally, wait four to six hours, and repeat. And that's it. Those are the only instructions.

I thought they had forgotten to give us more information, or pamphlet, or book or something. I think a lot of people think it's a pill you take orally or you swallow. They don't realize that it's administered in the most intrusive, awkward way and it's multiple pills.

So, we start that and it starts to go wrong pretty quick. What it does is it induces labor essentially. So, we have a nine-month-old (now, a 10-month-old daughter).

So, I'm in the living room with our daughter. My wife is in the bedroom in our bathroom, we have the doors open so we can communicate back and forth about what's going on. So, I'm trying to keep a happy face for our little girl in the living room.

She starts and she starts saying pretty quick, “Something isn’t right, I don't think this is right.” She had been bleeding since Thursday night. Now, she's bleeding profusely because of this drug. And we called the emergency center back and said, “We don't think this is right. Something feels very wrong about this.”

They asked us what color the blood was. And we said, “It's red, it's bright red.” And they said, “It should be brown. If it's not brown blood, then something is wrong.”

And as morbid as that sounds, I want people to hear that part because that became our focus, was the color of the blood.

And she's in the bathroom, I'm in the living room with our little girl and that's the conversation back and forth for hours and hours. Is it still bright red? Is it brown blood? It's still bright red.

We have one refill on the prescription. We reached the end of the first dose. It's terrifying to go through it. It's not working. The blood is apparently the wrong color. So, I go to the pharmacy, make sure I get there before they close, and they give us the last refill on that prescription.

And we start over again Friday night. And that goes all the way through the night and gets us to Saturday morning, still bright red blood. She's still bleeding profusely.

Saturday morning, we called the emergency center again. “Hey, this is not working. What do we need to do?” “Well, we can write you another prescription, but you have to come back in and get rechecked.” So, we went back on the Saturday morning to the emergency center.

They take my wife back, the nurse does the usual thing, checks her, checks her blood pressure, does all of the things. They have her chart from Thursday night, they know what happened.

There's another doctor on call, you can hear him from his desk. He was sitting at his desk, and he said, “I'm not giving her a pill so she could go home and have an abortion.”

And I don't know if he knew she could hear him say that or not, but he collected himself I guess and then directly to my wife said, “Considering the current stance, I'm not going to prescribe you this medicine.”

End of doctor's appointment. Not let's do a DNC immediately because this is clearly going wrong. Just the end of doctor's appointment.

And the nurse, you could tell she wanted to do something. The nurse could not believe it. And my wife becomes hysterical of course because they gave us no option. They just sent her on her way crying with our baby inside of her and no more medicine.

So, we have to kind of collect ourselves. Our daughter's still with us in the car seat. We're in the truck. We're trying to get it together. We know there's a hospital an hour away. It's where our daughter was born. We called, they said, “Come in immediately.”

We went, they took her right back. I stayed in the truck with our daughter and my wife and I were on FaceTime because we wanted to shield our little girl from as much of this as possible.

Rick Wilson:

Of course you would.

Ryan Hamilton:

So, I'm in the truck just trying to say we're on an adventure, everything's okay. And that balance was hard for both of us because well, for reasons I'm sure you understand.

Rick Wilson:

Of course. Of course.

Ryan Hamilton:

But they take her back and she has to start all over again with the examination. They have to do a new scan, they have to reconfirm the baby has no heartbeat. They are asking her all the same questions over again.

And they do their examination. They determine the same thing. They know she's two rounds of misoprostol in. She's bleeding through several pads over several hours. She started bleeding Thursday night, now it's Saturday mid-morning.

And after they do the examination and determine what we already know, plus they have the information of her taking the misoprostol twice, they just disappeared for hours only to come back in occasionally and ask some question that they've already asked. Or just see, “Hey, you doing okay?”

It was odd. And they finally come back in, the doctor, and they decided that it was not enough of an emergency to perform a DNC.

And for people that don't know what a DNC is, it's a procedure to get the baby out. Abortion is what is done, a DNC is how it's done essentially. So, what they told us is that my wife was not close enough to dying.

Sorry, Rick. I just can't. I try and tell this and just tell it and it's hard, man.

Rick Wilson:

Ryan, no, man, I'm here for you both.

Ryan Hamilton:

So, they decide it's not enough of an emergency and they're going to do us a favor and give us one more round of misoprostol, but this time much stronger with no refills. They say if we decide we want a DNC, maybe they can schedule one for a week or two later.

Rick Wilson:

Oh, Christ.

Ryan Hamilton:

And that's where they get away with it because technically, they offered. On the discharge paperwork on the hospital, it recommends we go see our OB. Anybody who has an OB, you know you can't get an appointment immediately.

I don't understand how they have this information. They know my wife could get an infection or sepsis and die and they just want to delay it, but technically offer. And they just sent us back home. And we went back home on Saturday and started all over again.

And this time, it's still one sentence, but the instructions are different. It says insert vaginally, wait, (I believe it was eight to 10 hours) repeat.

So, we go home, and we start again. I'm in the living room with our daughter. My wife no longer has the strength to go from the bed to the bathroom. She had developed this routine. Lay down in bed until it got too bad, get up, go sit on the toilet, (which is what you have to do) and go back and forth.

She's no longer strong enough to do that. So, she just stays in the bathroom and lays down. And she asked me to bring her a heating blanket and a pillow.

And that was the first like hold on a second moment for me because when I went in the bathroom and she was laying in the floor of the bathroom and I'm wrapping her in this heating blanket, she was ice cold. And she was clammy, like sticky. And I had to lift her head up and put it on the pillow, I put some towels.

And I remember walking back into the living room and it was the first time I had the thought like, “Is she going to die? Like what is the level of what's happening?”

So, that gets us through to Sunday morning. She started bleeding Thursday night. We're into Sunday now.

Rick Wilson:

Jesus Christ.

Ryan Hamilton:

So, we haven't slept. She's been bleeding profusely for over 48 hours. She's in the bathroom just on the floor with barely enough strength to get up on the toilet and then lay back down.

And we started just kind of this awful routine this Sunday morning, I get up … routine's important for a nine-month-old little girl. So, I'm feeding her breakfast, trying to do the normal things.

I had a missed call on my phone. My wife was no longer strong enough to yell at me from the other room, so she had started calling me if she needed me. And I had a missed call because I was taking care of our little girl.

And when I saw it, I set her daughter in her playpen, went into the bedroom, then into the bathroom. And she had fallen off of the toilet and she was unconscious. And there was blood from the toilet seat down into the floor.

She had fallen in a really awkward position. In a position where something it's very wrong. And I just started yelling. It was like out of body. “Are you okay? Can you hear me?” All of those things.

So, I picked her up and put her back on the toilet. It's so disgusting to me that so much of this happens there.

And I dressed her and carried her into the living room, still unconscious. Put our daughter in the car seat, put my daughter in the truck. Came back in, got my wife still unconscious, carried her to the truck. Wasn't calling an ambulance, we didn't trust any of these people. I was not waiting.

Some people think this is very irresponsible of me, but my wife is alive, so I hate to argue with them. But I drove my wife to the hospital. Our only other option other than that first emergency clinic where that guy cited the current stance, we're not going back there.

Got her to the hospital, ran in, said, “My wife is unconscious, she's bleeding.” They came out, I helped them get her out of the truck onto the cart. And they took her back and they said, “Thank God you brought her when you did.”

And it's the only time they didn't hesitate because she was finally close enough to dead that they had to help. And they saved her. They gave her the fluids that she needed. They said she had lost a ton of blood. She was severely dehydrated.

And they wanted to keep her longer, but she didn't want to be poked and prodded anymore. And we left the hospital later that day and-

Rick Wilson:

They still weren't offering to do the DNC at that point.

Ryan Hamilton:

Correct. So, we were able though, to confirm that the baby was no longer with her. That though, now that we've gotten through it and we've learned what we've learned, there are still things that can be left that cause infection. So, why they didn't go, “Well, let's maybe check.” I don't know.

But they didn't offer, but they did confirm the baby was no longer with her.

And I love the argument from these people online. Oh, so the medicine worked. Why are you complaining?

Rick Wilson:

Well, so after that, you were concerned rightly she still had material from the passed child in her, the fetus, that could still cause a problem. So, go on from there.

Ryan Hamilton:

Yeah. So, at that point, we don't want to go to any doctor, especially around here. She is terrified. I don't know if she'll ever lose that fear of the doctor now.

We have this conversation the night before I decide to share thinking I'm just sharing with the people that keep up with me and our family. That's really all that was for. Not thinking it was going to go out to the world and become news. So, I did that.

And because I did that, and I've been sharing, we had some doctors reach out from all over the US and they've been amazing. And they've been able to kind of guide us and guide our expectations. A couple in particular that been asked not to say anything about.

So, my wife did get an infection and narrowly avoided sepsis. And just today, got her first negative pregnancy test because her body still thought she was pregnant.

It's a horrific thing to go through all on its own without the state of Texas torturing someone like that.

Rick Wilson:

I mean, I think there's no better phrase for it than what you just said was torture. Your wife was tortured for far, far longer than any rational person could conscience because of politics at the end of the day.

Ryan Hamilton:

Yep.

Rick Wilson:

And we all know Texas is a conservative state. I live in Florida, it's a conservative state. Do you think that if any of these people that were passing these wildly expanded restrictions, had one hour in your shoes in this experience, that they would've voted for it?

Ryan Hamilton:

No chance. I don't think a man could survive a menstrual cycle. You know what I mean?

Rick Wilson:

I'm told.

Ryan Hamilton:

Yeah. My wife would tell you the same thing. And men think we know what's best and that this is some sort of bullshit Bible related Christian point of view. It's so fucked up, Rick, that they think this is okay. And they would never, in a million years, lasted the Thursday night, let alone all the way to Sunday.

Rick Wilson:

Right. Let me ask you another question about this. Do you think the medical personnel really understood the law? Or do you think they're just like, “Okay, it's illegal now. Fuck it, we're not doing it.”

Because it felt like to me, like when he says the current stance, I'm sure this guy didn't go and like read the legal briefings about it. Do you think they just don't understand what they can and can't do? Or is it they're just like scared to cross the line with the Texas law?

Ryan Hamilton:

Great question. They seem scared. And if people don't know, they face prison and huge fines if they don't navigate that accordingly.

So, the word abortion doesn't really get used when you're in the middle of it. They're afraid to say it. Understandably so. So, they use words like the tissue, or a DNC, or they don't want to come out and say abortion because they're afraid.

And even that older gentleman that made that terrible right statement to us, I think that comes from fear and confusion because he's not even quite sure what he's allowed to do.

Rick Wilson:

Right. Look, I know a lot of doctors, and I talked to a couple. I was emailing with a couple of my friends who were doctors this morning and asking them like, “You've heard of this case, what would you have done?”

And every person I spoke to or communicated with about this, the opinion was like Texas law is so bad. They all live in states where it's not like Texas. They were all like, “I would've just done it. I would've just said screw it. Done it, saved the life, saved the woman's soul.

And one asked me a really interesting question. He said, “So, they knew from the beginning of the process that the baby had died? They knew from the beginning the baby had died.”

And he said, “At that point, it's not an abortion in the sense that the text legislature means. At that point, this is just taking tissue out of the body that is already passed. It is already dead.”

And that's what troubled me so much about this story is they knew from the beginning, like from the time you walked in the door of the first visit, the baby was gone. There was no baby there left. It was just gone.

And that's what outrages me about this story is they tortured your wife for days even though they knew that on the front end.

And I don't know if that says something about the character of those people, or the character of the medical system, or the character of the power of fear, or whether the corporations that own these medical clinics are interpreting the law in a way that ends up being this nightmare for people. I just don't know. And I don’t know if any of us really know.

But you guys experience it in such a … I mean, it's a heart wrenching story, man. And I feel for you and I feel for your wife at such a level because nobody should go through what you went through.

Ryan Hamilton:

Thank you.

Rick Wilson:

But I want to take it to what happened after you told your story, because it did get worse in a lot of ways. When I saw you in my feed, people were treating you in ways online of such extravagant, horrific, torturous cruelty. I could not believe they were members of the same human race.

Ryan Hamilton:

Same.

Rick Wilson:

Talk to us a little bit about what happened once your story became more widely known with the trolling and the attacks.

Ryan Hamilton:

Well, it's the last thing we ever thought was going to happen. We were just going to inform, like I said, the people that were kind of keeping up. And then it went viral. It's the last thing you want to go viral really.

Rick Wilson:

Of course.

Ryan Hamilton:

And I wasn't ready for that. “You're a liar. This is political propaganda.” But I could kind of stomach that. Then on my original post, I quoted my wife because she yelled at one point out of frustration, “Get this dead baby out of me.”

And I referenced that, and these people made memes, they made a song. Get this dead baby out of me became a big joke to these people. They said things like, “Your wife killed your baby.”

It's the worst side of humanity. I didn't know it could get that bad and it infuriated me. And I had to learn, and I'm better now. And it's only been a few weeks, but you want to hurt them, and you want to convince them of their ignorance, but they're so far gone there's no convincing them otherwise.

And that's been the biggest thing for me. It's not the cruelty, which is at a level I didn't know was possible. And these people claiming they're Christians. There's nothing Christian about these people. They're full of hate and ignorance.

And I mean, if you're going to be a Christian, that's being compassionate, and caring, and forgiving, and helping people in need. They're doing none of that.

And the cruelty continues because now, I'm fighting back. And the louder they get, the louder I get. And the advantage I have is I've taken the time to educate myself. I've spoken to doctors and professors, and I want to learn, not just go, “Our team needs to win.” Which is all these people are doing.

But the fucked up things they have said to me and my wife I did not know it was possible.

Rick Wilson:

I remember you and I DMed at some point in the last few weeks about it. And I remember going through your feed and just seeing the things people were saying that I would not wish on my worst enemy in the world.

The degree to which it was just, I mean, so beyond civilized, beyond understanding, I felt for you guys, and I've been thinking about you guys, and praying about you guys ever since then because it's like you went through something that is so horrifying and so painful.

And all the time, you as a father and a husband, your wife is suffering what could be the end of her life, she's suffering from the loss of a child. You're trying to take care of your nine month old baby.

I can't look through the history here and say that you did anything in this case that deserves even a millionth of this stuff that they're laying on you.

And I feel for you, and your wife, and your family because what they're doing represents something that honestly, they don't get to come back from. They should pray they never have this circumstance. They should pray that karma never comes to get them for doing this to you and your family. It's unbelievable.

But I think one of the things, Ryan, that I admire so much about you is you went forward. When it got hard to tell the story, you kept telling the story because the story is important to tell.

And the emotional burden you'll carry on this is going to be with you for a while, my friend. I'm not going to soft pedal it. I think you know it.

But I think you've also got a lot of friends out in the world now. You got a lot of people who admire your courage. And I want to thank you so much for coming on the show today and telling your story. It really means a lot.

Ryan Hamilton:

Thanks, Rick. I really appreciate it.

Rick Wilson:

And please give your wife our very best. Woo, I get a little emotional sometimes, guys. But I appreciate you and thanks for coming on the show today. And hopefully next time I'm out your way in the world, we will get together and go have a beer and have happier times.

Ryan Hamilton:

You're invited.

Rick Wilson:

Absolutely, brother. We'll talk to you soon.

Ryan Hamilton:

Thanks, Rick.

Ken Harbaugh:

Thanks again to Rick, Ryan, and The Lincoln Project Podcast. It's been 13 years since Annmarie and I experienced a miscarriage and it still hurts. But I want everyone who's been through something similar to know that the pain does heal with time.

And so, I thought I'd share this piece I wrote back in 2011 for All Things Considered on NPR. Thank you.

Speaker 6:

Every culture has its death rituals, whether it's a wake or the Jewish custom of sitting shiva, these ceremonies exist to help us say goodbye to loved ones.

But as commentator Ken Harbaugh knows all too well the death of an unborn child is different. An event not generally marked in public. He has this reflection on how he and his wife have dealt with the kind of pain that few talk about.

Ken Harbaugh:

It has been three months since the miscarriage. We weren't far along, still in the first trimester, so only our closest friends knew we were expecting. Annmarie, my wife, is fine. At least her body is fine. There was something broken in both of us though.

My wife and I have every reason to be grateful. The miscarriage happened early on. Annmarie was never in danger. We have two beautiful girls already. If we want, we can still have more.

But the whole experience left us wondering how one deals with the tragedy that happens quietly at home.

A few weeks before we lost the baby, my wife's grandfather died. His funeral, like any other, was solemn, but also beautiful. Everyone came, all 10 kids from across the country. Distant relatives, coworkers, people from church stopped by to pay their respects. They mourned alongside the family.

We buried Grandpa Kel that afternoon and woke the next morning with a memory of a beautiful sendoff.

There is a reason that such ceremonies exist. Who knows if it meant anything to grandpa lying in his casket, but it meant a lot to everyone else.

I gave him my Gold Navy wings pinned to an American flag laid on his chest. He was the only other Navy pilot in the family, and I felt the need to solemnize that connection.

Others said goodbye in their own way. Some talked to him, some knelt for a while by his side. Most importantly, we all said farewell together.

A miscarriage is tragic enough by itself. What makes it worse is the fact that no social custom has evolved to help us through the loss. There is no ceremony, no coming together, no ritualized support.

Annmarie and I suffered alone in silence. Most of our friends had no idea we were grieving. It took me two weeks to tell my own mom.

And it's not as if life stopped or even slowed down to allow us a moment to reflect. We had jobs to get to, kids to take care of. Real sadness seemed an indulgence we could not afford.

In the months since, I have learned something about this kind of grief. It is not a luxury, but an essential part of healing.

So, this weekend after the kids are in bed, Annmarie and I will do something that may seem a little crazy. We'll head into the garden with a bulb we've been saving. We will bury it, say a few words, and hold each other. We will finally have our ceremony.

I suspect that watching the first green shoot push up through the earth will hurt. Every time we see it, we will be reminded of what happened to us. But that's alright. Grief cannot be buried forever. With enough time and a little sunlight, it might just transform itself into something that aches a little less.